# If you think the Schiavo case will "backfire" on Republicans, you're a fool **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904 "2005-03-23T17:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/181 "2005-03-24T18:35:03Z")
I have several comments to make in regard to much that has gone on in this thread. First and foremost would be that the Dope’s motto is “Fighting Ignorance,” not _assailing_ it! We are all ignorant of far more than we know. Does this render us worthless as human beings, or does it just mean there is far more knowledge to be had than can be absorbed? Secondly, Dopers in the main are pretty much an elite (and sometimes elitist) bunch. They tend to be very involved both emotionally and intellectually in the issues of the day, and they seem to have more time available to spend researching the issues that resonate with them. To a certain degree they live in an ivory tower that most people in America – or the world, for that matter – simply don’t have time for. Most people are involved with jobs and bosses and finances and children and errands, etc., and simply don’t have the time nor inclination to pursue the issues that come up here as thoroughly as do many Dopers. Many get their impressions of an issue based on what they read or see on television, and if no one refutes the things that are said, there is absolutely nothing to trigger the idea that it should be looked into further. Let’s take the issue of whether or not Terri’s husband is the only one who said she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially. This is only one of a great many assertions or statements made in the course of a thirty minute or one hour television program. Is one to sit there with a stenographer, take down every word that is spoken, and then set about to research its veracity? Of course not. Unless somebody calls bullshit on it (and I’ve seen that assertion made all over the media, not just Fox) it simply doesn’t occur to most of us to look into the statement further. It would be totally unworkable to try to verify every statement made on these shows. This does not mean that the viewer does not have a right to an opinion, and it doesn’t mean they are to become a source of rage and/or assailed when some aspect of their opinion turns out to be in error. In regard to my own case, my lack of knowledge regarding Shiavo was the result of time allocation regarding news stories and other items of interest. When I turn on the television, read a magazine or go to an online news site, I’m confronted with a virtually unlimited number of things to read or listen to. Since I can’t get to everything I want to find out about, I weed out the things that I either have no interest in or feel would be too complex to get into at the time. The latter is the case regarding Terri Shiavo. There seemed to be too many conflicting aspects to it, and whatever the result it was bound to be an unhappy ending, so I pretty much avoided it given that there was nothing I could do about it anyway. Still, I was left with the impression that her husband was the only one saying she would have wanted to die, and since I’d heard nothing to the contrary, it never occurred to me that it should be looked into further. Which brings up the subject of court rulings. Many say “You should have known, given court ruling after court ruling, that there was plenty of evidence that she had told others she wanted to die.” Part of the reason I didn’t is due to what I explained in the paragraph above, and part of it is due to the fact that courts themselves often disagree on these things. What one judge will accept as fact will be thrown out by another and so on. Therefore, I simply haven’t developed the habit of looking to the courts for definitive answers on things. Thirdly, I see an awful lot of judgementalism going on in this thread. “I know such and so, you fucking tool, and therefore you should know it as well or you better not open your yap!” Well, there’s quite a problem with that if you don’t happen to be a mind-reader. And of course, this type of attitude really boils down to a demand for self-imposed censorship. People are entitled to their opinions and they are entitled to speak those opinions. If it turns out they are in the wrong, this should be brought to light, but not with the snide, self-satisfied and judgemental type of attitude so prevalent throughout this thread. And forth, there seems to be an awful lot of smug superiority at work here at the Dope. Take **eleanorigby’s** comment below: "As to the OP–sadly, I think he’s right. _America has the attention span of ADD afflicted 2 year olds_–what will be remembered is that the Right tried to save a life and the Left (those demon people) tried to end it. _God, I wish I lived in a smarter country sometimes._" \ I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country. Yet here we have such smug and superior comments about the people of America and no one contests it. In fact, this “America is stupid” and “America sucks” mentality is routinely guite prevalent throughout many threads in both the Pit and GD. When I was younger, I couldn’t wait to get out of the unsophisticated, hick midwest and get to where the cool people were and where the action was. Then, when I got older and was able to get out and around in the world, I found out it was just the same everywhere. Local news programs were just as stupid, commercials were just as stupid, people still drove like idiots (or worse)…and even worse, there were things about my new locations that were worse than where I’d come from. So perhaps it’s just a quality of youth – this disdain for America and its people --but it certainly doesn’t lend much credibility to the ignorance-fighting aspects of these peoples’ posts. So in short, I’d say I would like to see a hell of a lot more of a live-and-let live attitude prevail around here, one where people could be made aware of it in those cases where they are in error on this subject or that, without it being made into an elitist mob-mentality attack on the person in error wherein the attempt is made to tear them apart. If this were a jungle and not cyberspace, I’d be in tiny little pieces by now. And that’s not right, especially on a board where everyone aspires to a higher standard than the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/182 "2005-03-24T18:35:47Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > You’ve probably been decieved by that video clip so ubiquitous, that seems to show her responding, grunting, trying to communicate, recognizing faces and responding to love. What you don’t see is the rest of the story, which is that persons afflicted as she was frequently do just that even when there is no one in the room to respond to, its just a very complex sort of reflex. Facial recognition is not an intellectual activity, there are people with certain brain injuries who cannot recognize faces at all, but are pretty much normal in every other regard. > > I’m sure this is covered somewhere in the 12,456 (at last count) threads on this Board, but this is the only one I’ve actually opened up (so don’t go calling me any names in 64-point font). **luci** (or whoever wants to take up the gauntlet), do you have a cite for this? I ask not in a confrontational manner, but more in a scientific, “How intriguing” fashion. Has anybody ever recorded a person in a Persistent Vegitative State when people were NOT around? Is there footage of this online somewhere? > > Clinically speaking, devoid of any sort of emotion, the incredible number of shades of gray between “alive” and “dead” are incredibly fascinating. I for one would like to learn more. From “[A Report to Governor Jeb Bush In the Matter of Theresa Marie Schiavo](http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/wolfson%27s%20report.pdf)” by Jay Wolfson, DrPh, JD, Guardian Ad Litem for Theresa Marie Schiavo: > [@](#): > > …Neurology, a nationally recognized specialty within Medicine, has sought to define the elements of disease states for purposes of treatment. The persistent vegetative state has been accepted as a formal diagnosis in modern American medical practice and it is recognized by American Academy of Neurology as: > > The vegetative state is a clinical condition of complete unawareness of the self and the environment, accompanied by sleep-wake cycles, with either complete or partial preservation of hypothamic and brain stem autonomic functions. In addition, patients in a vegetative state show no evidence of sustained, reproducible, purposeful, or voluntary behavioral responses to visual, auditory, tactile, or noxious stimuli; show no evidence of language comprehension or expression, have bowel and bladder incontinence; and have variably preserved cranial-nerve and spinal reflexes. We define persistent Vegetative state as a vegetative state present one month after acute traumatic or nontraumatic brain injury, or lasting in least one month in patients with degenerative or metabolic disorders or developmental malformations. > A particularly disarming aspect of persons diagnosed with persistent vegetative state is that they have waking and sleeping cycles. When awake, their eyes are often open, they make noises, they appear to track movement, they respond to deep pain, and appear startled by loud noises. Further, because that autonomic nervous system those brain related functions are not affected, they can often breathe (without a respirator) and swallow (saliva). But there is no purposeful, reproducible, interactive, awareness. There is some controversy within the scientific medical literature regarding the characterization and diagnosis of persons in a persistent vegetative state. Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling. > > Terri is a living, breathing human being. When awake, she sometimes groans, makes noises that emulate laughter or crying, and may appear to track movement. But the scientific medical literature and the reports the GAL (Guardian Ad Litum) obtained from highly respected neuro-science researchers indicate that these activities are common and characteristic of persons in a persistent vegetative state. > > In the month during which the GAL conducted research, interviews and compiled information, he sought to visit with Theresa as often as possible, sometimes daily, and sometimes more than once each day. During that time, the GAL was not able to independently determine that there were consistent, repetitive, intentional, reproducible interactive and aware activities. When Theresa’s mother and father were asked to join the GAL, there was no success in eliciting specific responses. Hours of observed video tape recordings of Theresa offer little objective insight about her awareness and interactive behaviors. There are instances where she appears to respond specifically to her mother. But these are not repetitive or consistent. There were instances during the GAL’s visits, when responses seemed possible, but they were not consistent in any way. > > This having been said, Theresa has a distinct presence about her. Being with Theresa, holding her hand, looking into her eyes and watching how she is lovingly treated by Michael, her parents and family and the clinical staff at hospice is an emotional and [sic] experience. It would be easy to detach from her if she were comatose, asleep with her eyes closed and made no noises. This is the confusing thing for the lay person about persistent vegetative states. It is quite a fascinating read, as it contains a thorough summary of everything that has taken place in this case through December 2003. **Starving Artist** , thank you, too, for your reasoned responses. My initial reply was the result of a cumulative annoyance at poster after poster after poster who has entered these threads in progress and spouted off some complete inaccuracy as if it were fact, clearly not having bothered to look for the truth. Although you were as guilty as the others, for you having taken the brunt of that cumulative anger, I apologize. However, your later admission that you hadn’t bothered to seek independent verification of rumors heard through clearly biased pundits and their guests, was even more annoying, especially given that I actually do think you’re smarter than that. Seriously, stop believing everything you hear on TV, no matter who it comes from. And in saying that, I’m not implying that no one on TV is believable, merely by virtue of the fact that they’re on TV. I’m simply suggesting that you look for corroboration, most especially when it concerns issues of legal findings of fact that are easily verifiable. It is extraordinarily irresponsible for these guys (regardless of party affiliation!) to go on national television when _they_ clearly haven’t bothered to learn the facts, themselves. I’ve written my congressional representative about this case, and I intend, once I have a chance to review the transcript (if I can find it) of the show you mentioned, to write to the moron you cite as having disseminated false information, to write to his sorry ass, as well. I think we have an obligation as a society to hold our newscasters up to MUCH higher standards than we are receiving now. Take note of how Dan Rather ended up retiring in shame for having exposed his clear bias in reporting. If news anchors and show hosts cannot be trusted, they should be run off the air. But time and time again, these people are held up as paragons, even in the face of “clear and convincing evidence” that they’re nothing but a bunch of self-serving liars. Unless or until we do something about it, I fear **Apos’s** predictions will undoubtedly come to pass. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/183 "2005-03-24T18:38:36Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I have several comments to make in regard to much that has gone on in this thread. First and foremost would be that the Dope’s motto is “Fighting Ignorance,” not _assailing_ it! We are all ignorant of far more than we know. Does this render us worthless as human beings, or does it just mean there is far more knowledge to be had than can be absorbed? Huh? I know fuck-all about organic chemistry. There you go. I’m ignorant in that subject. Now go ahead and count all the threads where I’ve barged in screaming about organic chemistry and how everyone else is wrong. In such a situation don’t you think I’d deserved to get reamed a new one? Of course. Apparently current events is the organic chemistry of several posters around here -Joe, inert gas ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/184 "2005-03-24T18:40:57Z")
> [@Misery Loves Co.](#): > > I’d just like to point out that **abbie** ’s M.O. on this whole issue has been to do one or two drive-bys in each thread that comes up, spew her uninformed, hysterical horsehit all over the participants, and then run away with her fingers stuck in her ears. Don’t waste your time. She does that with every issue-not just the Terri Schiavo threads. In fact it’s gotten so bad that I when I watch _Law & Order_ reruns I cringe when seeing her namesake. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/185 "2005-03-24T18:47:41Z")
**Shayna** , thank you for your post and for your apology. I know you still disapprove of my methods but perhaps my post previous to this will shed some light on the aspects you find troubling. I, too, admire your unquestionable intelligence and your passion and I would like for us to be friends. I don’t know if that can ever be possible given our widely disparate points of view, our passionate nature and the things we believe, but it would please me nonetheless if such were to occur. Regards, **SA** ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/186 "2005-03-24T18:49:44Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Huh? > > I know fuck-all about organic chemistry. There you go. I’m ignorant in that subject. > > Now go ahead and count all the threads where I’ve barged in screaming about organic chemistry and how everyone else is wrong. > > In such a situation don’t you think I’d deserved to get reamed a new one? Of course. > > Apparently current events is the organic chemistry of several posters around here > > -Joe, inert gas Thanks. You’ve just illustrated point number three. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/187 "2005-03-24T18:51:37Z")
Let me set aside the hostility for a moment to comment on this in perhaps a more constructive manner. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Thirdly, I see an awful lot of judgementalism going on in this thread. “I know such and so, you fucking tool, and therefore you should know it as well or you better not open your yap!” Well, there’s quite a problem with that if you don’t happen to be a mind-reader. And of course, this type of attitude really boils down to a demand for self-imposed censorship. People are entitled to their opinions and they are entitled to speak those opinions. If it turns out they are in the wrong, this should be brought to light, but not with the snide, self-satisfied and judgemental type of attitude so prevalent throughout this thread. If this is how you think you presented your opinion in this thread, you really need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. You make it sound as if you innocently raised a hand to offer something like: “Gee, in my opinion, Terri Schiavo has a chance to live. Gosh, I don’t know how anyone would deny her of that.” Instead, your actual opening remark, in the very first reply to the OP, was: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > The irony of couse is that if only she were a murderer, the left would be moving mountains to keep her alive and claiming the situation was in reality a back-door death penalty. You then went on to offer this in your next post: > [@](#): > > (See? Here’s another difference between the left and right. The right can laugh at itself, but the left is just so damned earnest.) > > I’d also point out to Voyager that we only have her husband’s word (the husband who wants her out of the way for marital and possibly financial motives) that Terri said she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially. Eventually you succumbed to actual facts, and made some sort of retraction of your bit about Michael Schiavo. Please tell me you aren’t blind to the offensive nature of your first two posts. Please retract yet again your charge that you received harsh responses (“snide, self-satisfied and judgemental type”) based not on being ignorant of the facts, but on being a prick when you entered the thread. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/188 "2005-03-24T18:57:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > She does that with every issue-not just the Terri Schiavo threads. In fact it’s gotten so bad that I when I watch _Law & Order_ reruns I cringe when seeing her namesake. :smack: THAT’S where I heard that name before! I had to take my partner’s sister to the emergency room on Monday night and was more or less forced by location and boredom to watch more TV than I have in one night since I was about 14. Several episodes of _Law & Order_ (a show I’d never seen more than about five minutes of at a time) were on the bill of fare (it was TNT’s weeknightly lineup). McCoy introduces his assistant as “Abby Carmichael” and I hear a little bell go off in my head… “Why does that name sound SO familiar?” (Personal critical review: Interesting show…if there weren’t a lot of things I enjoy more than watching TV I might make it a regular event) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/189 "2005-03-24T18:57:27Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Futile care, by the way, is defined as care being given to terminal patients with no hope of recovery. Terri Schiavo is not terminal. Persistent Vegatitive State is not considered a terminal condition. Chronic, yes, but not terminal. She could live in PVS for 30-40 years and eventually die of natural causes. > > Enjoy, > Steven PVS is not terminal, but is irreversible and requires life-sustaining treatment. > [@](#): > > (10) “Life-sustaining treatment” means treatment that, > 3-7 based on reasonable medical judgment, sustains the life of a > 3-8 patient and without which the patient will die. The term includes > 3-9 both life-sustaining medications and artificial life support, such > 3-10 as mechanical breathing machines, kidney dialysis treatment, and > 3-11 artificial nutrition and hydration. The term does not include the > 3-12 administration of pain management medication or the performance of > 3-13 a medical procedure considered to be necessary to provide comfort > 3-14 care, or any other medical care provided to alleviate a patient’s > 3-15 pain. The text of the bill says “If the patient is requesting life-sustaining treatment that the attending physician and the review process have decided is inappropriate treatment, the patient shall be given available life-sustaining treatment pending transfer”. A condition doesn’t have to be terminal for a decision of inappropriate treatment to be reached. The bill doesn’t define “futile” so I’m not even sure if a “terminal” rather than “irreversible” diagnosis is required to be considered “futile”. From what I’ve read, physicians define futile treatment as having [“no therapeutic or palliative purpose and [are] medically unnecessary and inappropriate”](http://www.baylorhealth.edu/proceedings/13_2/13_2_fine.html). In the case of PVS there is not therapeutic purpose - the patient is not going to get better. There is no palliative purpose, especially in the Schiavo case, since nearly all medical observers agree her body feels nothing. Therefore it would seem life-sustaining measures are inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/190 "2005-03-24T19:06:55Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country. Massive hijack here, but who says this? Liberal’s generally believe that everyone should have the same opportunity, but I don’t know of any who claim equality in intelligence and ability. I demand my right to be as good at golf as Tiger! Damn Bushco and The Man for keeping me down! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/191 "2005-03-24T19:08:42Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Eventually you succumbed to actual facts, and made some sort of retraction of your bit about Michael Schiavo. _Some sort of retraction?_ I said: “I apologize and retract my statement.” How could this be only “some sort” of retraction when I said so in so many words? > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Please tell me you aren’t blind to the offensive nature of your first two posts. Please retract yet again your charge that you received harsh responses (“snide, self-satisfied and judgemental type”) based not on being ignorant of the facts, but on being a prick when you entered the thread. Yes, I am aware of the offensive nature of my first two posts (the humor thing aside as that was more of a tease) and they were the result of the irony I see in the position of the left regarding life issues as further illustrated by **Miller’s** humorous post about murdering fetuses. I will not retract my charge of harsh responses as they were based on what I said about Michael Schiavo’s being the only one who said she wanted to die. There is little doubt in my mind that I could have entered this thread like a lamb, said the same thing, and gotten pretty much the same types of response. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/192 "2005-03-24T19:15:12Z")
I’m going to bow out of here for awhile because I want to see what the people here have to say about my post. I’ve noticed that people tend to sit by the sidelines when there are one-on-one arguments going on, and I want to see what everyone has to say without their having to jump in on some argument going on between me and another poster. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/193 "2005-03-24T19:16:48Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Massive hijack here, but who says this? Liberal’s generally believe that everyone should have the same opportunity, but I don’t know of any who claim equality in intelligence and ability. > > I demand my right to be as good at golf as Tiger! Damn Bushco and The Man for keeping me down! Typical bullshit rightie strawman. It’s generally followed by a rant about how all lefies are so mean or, possibly, a rant about the liberal media. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/194 "2005-03-24T19:19:29Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country. Absolutely not true. We are all equal in basic human worth, and we should all be equal in opportunity. We are different in intelligence and ability; in order to make us equal there we would need a Harrison Bergeron-esque environment. I don’t feel superior to you because I’m smarter than you (I may not be - lots of people are smarter than I am.); I feel superior to you because I have actually thought about my opinions. My opinions may be wrong, but they’re mine - I worked for 'em, and I earned 'em - they are not just regurgitated claptrap that I heard from whatever was on TV while I was crossing the living room. Your defenses of yourself in this thread are highly disingenuous. You claim the Schiavo case was too complex to get into, but state that one position is all you ever heard. You knew it was complex, you know it was controversial, you should have known that meant there was more than one side. You chose to start throwing about snark without educating yourself, and complain when you are judged on that. Tough. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/195 "2005-03-24T19:22:55Z")
**Starving Artists** , while your previous post certainly sheds light on your thought process, it still doesn’t really excuse the fact that you accepted highly politicized rhetoric from television pundits as fact, and then presented that information without bothering to ascertain its validity, with your own air of superiority. I appreciate your compliments and am flattered by your offer of frienship. I see no reason why our differing political views should prevent that. Just don’t expect me to cut you any slack because of it. 😉 Now go forth and read that GAL report I linked to. Yes, all 40 pages. _That_ is where you’re going to find unbiased factual information related to this case. Have a great day! ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/196 "2005-03-24T19:29:24Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > PVS is not terminal, but is irreversible and requires life-sustaining treatment. Hmm, I remember seeing something on a legal analysis site about the difference between Terri and Sun Hudson and how the Texas Futile Care law wouldn’t apply to her because she wasn’t terminal and he was. My own reading of the bill, now that you’ve posted it(I couldn’t find it, thanks for posting it. I had read about half of chapter 166 trying to find it and I guess I was looking for the wrong terms), would not support the “patient must be terminal” analysis. I’ll have to see if I can find the legal-ish(don’t know if it was an actual lawyer or just some wanna-be layman) analysis I read earlier. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/197 "2005-03-24T19:33:35Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > And forth, there seems to be an awful lot of smug superiority at work here at the Dope. Take **eleanorigby’s** comment below: > > "As to the OP–sadly, I think he’s right. _America has the attention span of ADD afflicted 2 year olds_–what will be remembered is that the Right tried to save a life and the Left (those demon people) tried to end it. > > _God, I wish I lived in a smarter country sometimes._" \ > I’ve always thought one of the main tenets of liberalism is that we are all human beings and we are all equal in terms of intelligence and ability. Blacks and women are no different than men, and the people of any one particular country are no better in such terms than the people of another country. > > So perhaps it’s just a quality of youth – this disdain for America and its people --but it certainly doesn’t lend much credibility to the ignorance-fighting aspects of these peoples’ posts. > > So in short, I’d say I would like to see a hell of a lot more of a live-and-let live attitude prevail around here, one where people could be made aware of it in those cases where they are in error on this subject or that, without it being made into an elitist mob-mentality attack on the person in error wherein the attempt is made to tear them apart. I did not attempt to tear you apart–I never alluded to you. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at your entire post. And quoting incompletely is so- er-ignorant. The rest of that quote is --“make that a better educated country.” Thank you, first of all, for using me as the poster child for superior liberal elitism. I have never won anything of note in my life, but dang! I won this one! If you are feeling ganged up on–perhaps that is because you were indeed ganged up on and rightly so. As you related to us all–this is the Straight Dope. The intelligence evident on the bb gives me hope that illiteracyand a lack of critical thinking etc is not as pervasive as one would think in America. Is there something wrong with that? Would you perhaps prefer it if our opinions were established and rigidified via sound bytes and spin? Oh-wait, so many of them are already. I am fairly new here, but one thing is clear to me–the members here expect value for money. They want informed, intelligent discourse, some snarky humor and sillimess and yes, some down and dirty fighting–but it better have a modicum of sense and coherency to it. Being in the Pit does not allow one to just rant about unsubstantiated stories and spew mis-information. It may well behoove you to remember that --and I think it disingeous of you to say that "gosh, I didn’t know the whole story, I wasn’t paying attention to it really at all, but I can come in here and state mis-information and that should just be ok, because this is America,and we are all equal, no? " Yes, you can do that–but you (or I, if I did this) should expect to get flack for it. Deal. I don’t know if the "youth’ allusion is directed to me–but that tickles me. I am over 40 and feel about 80 today. As to my remark about the ADD afflicted 2 year old being similiar to America’s attention span…that may be a unique description of it, but it is a well known fact that we, as a society, do NOT wait for the full story, forget headlines within days if not hours, and we often refuse to demonstrate the patience needed to get all the pertinent details of any story. See the McDonald’s hot coffee story for an example. Talk on the street is that the woman with the burns was stupid and it was a frivolous suit etc. Talk on the street is often superficial and wrong. There are more examples–I just can’t think of one at present. The current debacle that is the Terri Schiavo case is an excellent example. I have no idea where woman’s equality comes into play here or race relations. As to the comment that one nation is better than another (correction, the people of one country are better than another)–again, no idea where that came from, but…–we don’t teach that to our kids at all. We teach that America is the Greatest Country in the World with the most generous, kind hearted people, only America is the Land of Opportunity etc. No, we don’t denigrate other countries, that I know of, but we are certainly NOT shouting “Up Canada!” or “Yay! France!” or whatever. What I take away from your post is that you are upset that you were called on a poorly thought out post–and BTW, I thought you apologized quite gracefully and that should have been an end to it–but also, you seem to feel the need to put yourself in the righteous position here. Why? Why all the calls for tolerance and the denigration of perceived superiority? Why the damning of intellectual prowess? Is it no OK to be smart, even here? I would say off the top of my head that the average SD member does indeed enjoy a higher intelligence than the average guy down the street. So what? Is anyone here calling for a denial of voting rights for all those folks with the red tape over their mouths in “support” of Terri? Have any of the militantly intelligent suggested storming the White House and taking over? Has anyone said anything more inflammatory than Jeb/W should be put in Terri’s position for a day? Or that DeLay et al are as cerebrally cortex challenged as poor Terri? No-but they dared to slap you down for presuming to weigh in on a discussion about which you (admittedly) know almost nothing. Does that rankle? OK-it would probably tick me off, too(if I am brutally honest–might even hurt my feelings)–but there is no need to take it to another level. The extrapolation doesn’t even make sense, really. Frankly, I am surprised that the flames didn’t get higher and hotter. I have no beef with you, **Starving Artist** --I don’t see why you have inflated this argument to this level. The only explanation to me is that you want to change the focus of this thread from the OP and to make the argument that it’s OK to repeat “spin” and not follow a story(but weigh in on it)–in other words, to maintain the statu quo of American discourse. That’ll fly in the Enquirer, but not here. SD has higher standards. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/198 "2005-03-24T19:34:33Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Absolutely not true. We are all equal in basic human worth, and we should all be equal in opportunity. We are different in intelligence and ability; in order to make us equal there we would need a Harrison Bergeron-esque environment. Okay, since this has come up twice in a row, perhaps I’d better clarify it before I go. You and **Zakalwe** , either by error or intent, appear to be construing my comments to mean that one individual human is no different than another. I would think my true meaning would be obvious insofar as I took pains to make it so, but just so’s we’re clear here I’m speaking of the intelligence and ability of one race vs. the other, one sex vs. the other, etc. Such was the position of the liberal faction in the late sixties, the seventies, etc. One had to pretend that women were as strong as men, etc., or be shouted down in fits of indignation. And then there was the case of the sportscaster who nearly lost his job when he observed blacks were superior athletes. No, such a point of view was (and probably still is) regarded as racism, even though it was a compliment. And you people accuse _me_ of disingenuousness! :rolleyes: But then again, perhaps you guys are just too young to appreciate the stances previously championed by your own side and which form the foundation for your beliefs today. Either way, it has long been held that there is no substantive difference in intelligence or ability between the races or between the people of different countries. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/199 "2005-03-24T19:38:12Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Okay, since this has come up twice in a row, perhaps I’d better clarify it before I go. Perhaps it would work better if you type what you mean the first time. Oh, and, by the way, this is not the first time I’ve seen you throw about the “too young” shibboleth. Not only is it nonsense, I’m 47. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/200 "2005-03-24T19:43:47Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > One had to pretend that women were as strong as men, etc., or be shouted down in fits of indignation. And then there was the case of the sportscaster who nearly lost his job when he observed blacks were superior athletes. No, such a point of view was (and probably still is) regarded as racism, even though it was a compliment. > > And you people accuse _me_ of disingenuousness! :rolleyes: > > But then again, perhaps you guys are just too young to appreciate the stances previously championed by your own side and which form the foundation for your beliefs today. > > Either way, it has long been held that there is no substantive difference in intelligence or ability between the races or between the people of different countries. WTF has this to do with the fact that you posted from ignorance and got called on it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904.md?page=11)