# If you think the Schiavo case will "backfire" on Republicans, you're a fool **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904 "2005-03-23T17:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/101 "2005-03-24T04:18:35Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > OK, then fine, where do you get your information? CNN, MSNBC, Fox, my local newspaper, Drudge (and sundry links therefrom), ABC, CBS, NBC…and like you, the Dope. I bow to your wider range of sources, but the fact of the matter remains I watch Fox very little and listen to talk radio not at all, yet people here constantly assert with complete confidence that I am little but a Fox network and talk radio talking point robot. > [@This Year's Model](#): > > Your statement that “This is the kind of thing I’ve heard anytime I’ve heard reference to this issue.” makes no sense. You _know_ there is controversy about it. Why would there be a controversy if everyone felt the only way you’d heard? There would be a controversy over whether or not she should be allowed to die! That is the controversy! The question of whether or not someone other than her husband heard her say she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially is a side issue and not at all in the forefront of most discussion regarding the “controversy” you speak of. > [@This Year's Model](#): > > You should do what I do. I’ll follow up and make sure I understand both sides of an issue regardless of which my instinct is to support. Then I can argue better. If it doesn’t interest me enough to learn about it, then I just keep my big yap shut instead of displaying my ignorance. Seriously, let’s assume for a minute I’m just Joe Blow watching t.v. and that I have no contact with the Dope and its legion of lefties. I’m sitting there, watching t.v., and I hear someone like Lanny Davis say “Her husband _claims_ she told him she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially, but we don’t _know_ that to be the case.” Now, what is there in that statement that should set off alarms indicating that this viewer should question whether or not she had told someone else and set about trying to investigate the matter further. And not only that, where are they supposed to look to get the information? The fact of the matter is, most people by far will accept such a statement at face value, simply because it’s coming from a credible source and they heard nothing raised to question it. It’s easy to sit around and say “I do this,” or “You should do that,” in order to have the same information you do. But the fact is that such a stance is a highly subjective and self-serving one, and it demands behavior on the part of the viewer that would be quite outside the norm for the casual listener. And for my part, in this case I was a casual listener. Thus, I posted what I did as a result of having heard no challenge to the notion that her husband was the only one claiming she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially. It turned out that I was wrong in this instance, but this error is quite understandable in my opinion, and it in no way speaks of intellectual laziness, inexcusable ignorance, or ideological grandstanding on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/102 "2005-03-24T04:29:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He’s a politician. He doesn’t _have_ crdibility. The only reason to watch any of those talking head pundit shows is to learn what the Lie of the Day is. Don’t ever listen to them and expect to get anything resembling the truth. > > You said earlier that the difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives can laugh at themselves. I submit that the difference between us is y’all actually believe what your candidates tell you. Liberals, at least, know better than that. Miller, Lanny Davis is not a politician. He is an attorney. (And like a good little Doper, I Googled him prior to this post just to make sure he hadn’t suddenly become a politician without my knowledge. This due to the fact that you _usually_ know what you’re talking about. 😉 ) He is the former special White House counsel to Bill Clinton. He is a lawyer, and he is a Democrat. He is not aligned with me politically, and he is not a person with whom I would normally agree on matters of politics. I do, however, have respect for his accomplishments and the position he held. Therefore, I perceive greater credibility when it comes to him than I would with regard to your typical politico. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/103 "2005-03-24T04:38:09Z")
**Apos** , you have just said it all…(Sorry to have to agree with ya). I was thinking about this today, working my way through the “d’s;” disgust, dismay, despair, and depression about how eager some people are to shoot first and ask questions…well,…never (witness **Starving Artist’s** outbursts). I don’t know how they do it, but man, they are **good**. It’s not enough to know and present the facts. It’s not enough to point out false logic or false premises- some people just.don’t.want.to. know. They don’t want “fair and balanced” news. They don’t want to hear both sides of the issues-unless their side is praised and the other side is vilified. Calm, rationale, intelligent people (like, well, you and me) slap our foreheads and say things like > [@](#): > > I cannot BELIEVE that they are spending so much time and energy on one person who is pretty much dead, but don’t give a SHIT to those who are suffering every day because of lack of basic necessities. and keep hoping one day people will wake up and say “Holy fucking shit!!! I’ve been sooooo stupid!!” You’re right- it aint gonna happen. You want a real bitch-slap of a reality check? Go look at any of the Yahoo message boards. Wading through such hatred and willful ignorance makes me sorry I had kids. What a shame that with all the information available at the push of a button, some people still go to bed stupid. The only ray of hope I can see is that Bush and his handlers will do something so egregious, so over-the-top, or that there will be some unintended consequence that no one saw coming, that even blaming it on Clinton won’t work. Unfortunately, it’s gonna take something really, really, bad to make that happen. The only other bright spot I can see while looking down the road in the direction this administration and it’s quislings want to take us…there’s no real point in quitting smoking!! ---
**Author:** ![zetafunction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@zetafunction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zetafunction)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/104 "2005-03-24T04:45:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And then there’s the price: you may have noticed some of our more intelligent and honest Pubbies are getting a bit green around the gills. Sure, they wanted to win, but didn’t realize they would have to publicly fellate the Fundy Right after the election was safely tucked away. As the OP said, get real. 99% of Republicans are less honest and intelligent than the Straight Dopers, and the rest will not care by the time of the election. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/105 "2005-03-24T04:49:14Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Miller, Lanny Davis is not a politician. He is an attorney. Like that’s _better_? I stand by what I said. He may not be running for political office, but the fact that he’s on that show in the first place means that he has a poltical agenda. That’s why those shows exsist, so that politicians can get their “message” out there, either in person or through a mouthpiece. Never believe what they say, even (hell, _especially_) if you agree with it, because the truth is _never_ what motivates their statements. Any semblence between the two is purely coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/106 "2005-03-24T05:09:38Z")
\< snipping on both ends \> 😛 > [@bizzwire](#): > > …never (witness **Starving Artist’s** outbursts). Look, I hate to be contributing to the hijack here, but since we’re all about fighting ignorance, I just wondered about this particular statement. And for background, usually **Starving Artist’s** drives me batshit insane with her views and obviously, we’re always on opposing sides. Even now, I disagree with her first statement in this thread. However, I don’t think she’s had any “outbursts” and despite anyone’s belief on the sincerity of her apology, she’s attempted (at least IMHO) to remain civil, see what others are saying and consider her actions. I’m not sure what more one could ask. I do understand though that people are fed-up and honestly wish to help dispel this kind of attitude by eradicating careless or lazy intellectual/interpretational behavior. But guys, for those who are giving it the ol’ college try, I wouldn’t think it would hurt to acknowledge that or stop holding their feet to the fire in Dante’s hell. Just a thought from another liberal. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/107 "2005-03-24T05:16:25Z")
I’ve been on the opposite side of the fence from **Starving Artist** on this issue. But it is certainly easy to understand why any one of us might not have accessed all the facts. There is so much contradictory information out there! Just tonight I heard Al Franken’s arguments spoiled by his insistence that Terri is “brain dead.” My understanding is that there is a difference between being “brain dead” and being in a PVS. Further, there is much confusion about what being in a _coma_ means and whether or not Terri is in a coma. Not all of us here have read all of the multiple threads about the case or followed the numerous links. The news programs are no help at all. The same discussion that had Franken erroneous (I think) describing her as “brain dead” had someone else describing her as being starved to death “but otherwise perfectly healthy.” I’m from Tennessee. I used to defend our Senator, William Frist, based on his humanitarian activism. I won’t anymore. This situation has exposed his feverish desire to exploit families and suffering for his own benefit _with disregard for the law._ But the situation has also exposed to me my own politicalization of the issue. I’ve become more concerned about the demonization of MIchael Schiavo and my resentment of the audacity of Congressional attempts to overthrown the judicial system than I have about the pain that _everyone_ in that family is going through. Please consider, however, especially if you are a younger person, that many of us who are middle-aged and older resent the demonization of those who have allowed our loved ones to be removed from life support systems. We too seek to do the loving thing. This situation happens _frequently._ ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/108 "2005-03-24T05:20:42Z")
**faithfool** , as usual, you are a voice for rational peacemaking. Just one word of correction. **Starving Artist** is a mighty fine **guy.** ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/109 "2005-03-24T05:30:25Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I’m from Tennessee. I used to defend our Senator, William Frist, based on his humanitarian activism. I won’t anymore. This situation has exposed his feverish desire to exploit families and suffering for his own benefit _with disregard for the law._ You mean his comments that HIV could be spread through sweat and tears didn’t do it for you? You know, really, we need to _forget_ the whole business of “Is Terri a veggie or not?” and concentrate on the fact that _the Federal government is spending time, lots of time, on **one fucking family!** _ It doesn’t matter _where_ you come down on this issue, the fact that the government is _neglecting_ matters which affect the lives of _millions_ of Americans to focus on one single person’s plight, is, on the whole, the very anti-thesis of the principles this nation was founded on. Hell, I bet even Dick Nixon’s spinning in his grave over this! ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/110 "2005-03-24T05:44:25Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **faithfool** , as usual, you are a voice for rational peacemaking. Just one word of correction. **Starving Artist** is a mighty fine **guy.** ::: blushes at **Zoe** ::: Thank you. That’s quite a compliment, especially from someone I respect. ::: kicks at dirt ::: And to **SA** … I’m so very sorry. I started out thinking you were male and somewhere along the line, I switched. Again, my apologies. There’s just too many of us to keep up with. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/111 "2005-03-24T06:13:43Z")
:: **SA** tips ten-gallon hat to **Zoe** :: Howdy, ma’am. 😉 **faithfool** , please don’t feel badly in the slightest. I took absolutely no offense, particularly in light of your very gracious post on my behalf, for which I thank you very much. Regards. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/112 "2005-03-24T09:31:32Z")
[http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005\_03\_01\_abstractappeal\_archive.html#111164185551711749](http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005_03_01_abstractappeal_archive.html#111164185551711749) Cries… ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/113 "2005-03-24T12:14:47Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Look, I hate to be contributing to the hijack here, but since we’re all about fighting ignorance, I just wondered about this particular statement. > > And for background, usually **Starving Artist’s** drives me batshit insane with her views and obviously, we’re always on opposing sides. Even now, I disagree with her first statement in this thread. However, I don’t think she’s had any “outbursts” and despite anyone’s belief on the sincerity of her apology, she’s attempted (at least IMHO) to remain civil, see what others are saying and consider her actions. > > I’m not sure what more one could ask. To his credit, **SA** acknowledged his error and retracted. I do not doubt his sincerity. However, spouting off on something you acknowledge you know nothing about doesn’t just make you look like an ass. I wasn’t railing against intellectual turpitude. Shit like that is fundamentally pernicious. Here, we have a very critical audience who will call bullshit when they smell it. Unfortunately, the hoi-polloi are not quite as discerning, and empty statements such as his are readily digested and excreted. Someone reads it, accepts it uncritically, and spreads the misinformation. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Pretty soon, what started off as uninformed opinion is now gospel. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, not feeding it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/114 "2005-03-24T12:50:06Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > [http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005\_03\_01\_abstractappeal\_archive.html#111164185551711749](http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005_03_01_abstractappeal_archive.html#111164185551711749) > > Cries… It _is_ quite ironic that the same people whose stock-in-trade is “activist judges” and “judicial tyranny” are actually assailing the judges in this case who _are following the law_. Their problem is that the law doesn’t say what they want it to. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/115 "2005-03-24T13:35:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And then there’s the price: you may have noticed some of our more intelligent and honest Pubbies are getting a bit green around the gills. Sure, they wanted to win, but didn’t realize they would have to publicly fellate the Fundy Right after the election was safely tucked away. The Mammonites care about entrepreneurship and a healthy business climate, the issue for them isn’t whether or not gay people are good citizens, are they good customers? > > So, no, not expecting backlash. More interested in erosion. That’s sort of related to my point about the real problem the Pubbies are going to have in the long term (though the way I phrased it was more cynical – the low-tax factiion, the pro-gun-rights faction, etc are going to be quietly but definitely POd that the Pubbie leadership can’t summon up a percent of a percent of this energy for their causes). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/116 "2005-03-24T13:39:38Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Lanny Davis, former White House counsel under Bill Clinton, is appearing as a guest on Bill O’Reilly’s show. Davis favors keeping Terri Schiavo alive and I just heard him say the following: "Here we have a husband who _claims_ that his wife said she wouldn’t want to be kept alive artificially, but we don’t _know_ that to be the case. (Emphasis his, by the way.) > > This is the kind of thing I’ve heard anytime I’ve heard reference to this issue. Now, what with such a comment coming from someone with undeniable left-wing credentials (and perhaps not the only one I’ve heard but certainly one I can now point to) perhaps I can be excused from the many accusations I’ve received in this thread accusing me of promoting false right-wing propaganda. Given that Davis is commenting on the basis of slipshod research (i.e. he clearly believes that there is no corraborating testimony from other sources), you can certainly point to him as evidence that leftists are ignoramuses (ignorami?). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/117 "2005-03-24T13:44:21Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Secondly, I would propose that listening to someone with the credibility of a Lanny Davis would seem to be, in and of itself, getting the facts. I’m speaking of the population at large here. It simply isn’t going to occur to most people to investigate further when they hear someone like Lanny Davis, or any other credible source, make such comments. One assumes they know what they’re talking about, especially since no one contests them. It doesn’t occur to many of us that there is anything further to investigate when one hears these things and no one challenges them. That is precisely the problem. Come on, you’re smart enough to understand the fallacy of “argument from authority”. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/118 "2005-03-24T13:49:48Z")
> [@elucidator & the NYT](#): > > Mr. DeLay complained that “the other side” had figured out how “to defeat the conservative movement,” by waging personal attacks, linking with liberal organizations and persuading the national news media to report the story. He charged that “the whole syndicate” was “a huge nationwide concerted effort to destroy everything we believe in.” Aaaah! It’s a Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy! Hill-ry and D-Lay, sitting in a tree! -Joe, immature ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/119 "2005-03-24T13:49:49Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > The question of whether or not someone other than her husband heard her say she didn’t want to be kept alive artificially is a side issue This question is fundamental to the determination of her own wishes in the matter, given that it is now impossible for her to state them for herself. Thus, it is a “side issue” if and only if one rejects the notion that people have the right to reject heroic life-support measures (in which case one ought to say so explicitly). ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904/120 "2005-03-24T14:02:43Z")
**SA** : 😃😃😃 > [@bizzwire](#): > > To his credit, **SA** acknowledged his error and retracted. I do not doubt his sincerity. > > However, spouting off on something you acknowledge you know nothing about doesn’t just make you look like an ass. I wasn’t railing against intellectual turpitude. Shit like that is fundamentally pernicious. Here, we have a very critical audience who will call bullshit when they smell it. Unfortunately, the hoi-polloi are not quite as discerning, and empty statements such as his are readily digested and excreted. Someone reads it, accepts it uncritically, and spreads the misinformation. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Pretty soon, what started off as uninformed opinion is now gospel. > > We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, not feeding it. To **bizzwire** , I’m not sure if I was smart enough to read your post, but after consulting a dictionary online, I _think_ I got most of it. Damn, you can write. 🙂 Anyway, I do agree that folks should try to be as informed as possible before they make their opinions known. However, a lot do not (family of mine, I’m definitely looking at y’all) and I didn’t think that **SA** intentionally wanted to do this and, as you’ve mentioned, rectified the situation to the best of his ability. That’s not what I was talking about though. Just the description of what happened as “outbursts.” Just like in anything, the facts alone are enough, no need (especially here) to make it look any more or worse than it is. People will take umbrage, like they’ve done, if necessary to show the error of their ways and hopefully, for whoever to change it. 'Tis all. I hope that makes my position clearer. Sorry if it wasn’t. It’s what occurs when I haven’t had plenty of caffeine. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-think-the-schiavo-case-will-backfire-on-republicans-youre-a-fool/295904.md?page=7)