# If you thought you knew Michael Vick... **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624 "2009-09-26T04:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/41 "2009-09-28T20:56:56Z")
didn’t stop to check the forum. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/42 "2009-09-28T21:02:30Z")
**Contrapuntal** : > [@](#): > > please restrain yourself from entering a thread only to disparage something while derailing the subject of the thread From the [forum rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=456581). If you want to address me again, open a thread in the BBQ Pit. I’m not going to respond to your threadshitting or hijacking anymore. And that goes from now on, in any thread. If you’ve got a problem with me, let’s hear it. In the proper forum. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/43 "2009-09-28T21:02:53Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The point was that it hasn’t been very long. Two and a half years is not significantly longer than one year. But “a few years” (your words) is? > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Just go away, seriously. You’ve got to be the most annoying, contrary poster on this whole board, and I’m pretty sure you’re following me around, trying to pick fights. You’ve done this way too many times for it to be coincidence. Unless ALL you do here is pick fights? I only notice you when you’re bothering me directly, so it could be that that’s your only contribution here. I don’t know you from Adam. > [@](#): > > The one positive thing I can say about you is that you certainly picked the right screen name. [It’s a musical term.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/contrapuntal) Glad I could clear that up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/44 "2009-09-28T21:05:32Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > **Contrapuntal** : > From the [forum rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=456581). If you want to address me again, open a thread in the BBQ Pit. I’m not going to respond to your threadshitting or hijacking anymore. And that goes from now on, in any thread. If you’ve got a problem with me, let’s hear it. In the proper forum. So pointing out that one year is not two and a half years is disparaging? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/45 "2009-09-28T21:13:24Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > Drunk driving is a horrible thing, and shows extremely poor judgment. However, Michael Vick didn’t get drunk and accidentally kill a dog. He (among other things) melodiously and intentionally held a dogs head underwater and drowned it. > > They’re both horrible deeds, and both need to be punished. I just don’t know if you can only use a simple comparisons of the value of a human life to that of an animal’s life as the only way to determine which is worse. They’re both heinously bad in their own way. > > As an example, (While some would disagree, most wouldn’t) flip the scenario. If a person held a human’s head under water until he died, or got drunk and accidentally killed a dog this would be a completely different conversation. I don’t disagree with what you say here. My point was that in both cases a crime was committed. In both cases the perpetrator was punished by the state (for some definition of punished - Vick was actually punished much more harshly FWIW). Little actually committed a very similar crime even _after_ his punishment (although he didn’t kill anyone this time - and was acquitted on the DUI). And yet, on this past Sunday, I heard thousands cheering when Little got a sack. And folks in this thread are calling for Vick to have a brain hemorrhage. Either a sports hero can be rehabilitated by serving the mandated punishment for their crime, or they can not. Picking and choosing just because dogs are cute or Vick doesn’t seem “sorry enough” makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/46 "2009-09-28T21:14:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Well, contrary to most Christians, this atheist believes in forgiveness. But Vick is nowhere near it yet. It’s been, what, a year? You’ll have to forgive me for not buying the PR blitz. If the NFL had any scruples whatsoever he would not be playing. Then maybe he could go on a public-speaking tour to raise awareness about dogfighting and animal abuse. After a few years of that, I would be a long way towards forgiving him. As of now he just wants to play ball (literally and figuratively), and doesn’t deserve an ounce of credit or forgiveness. He can go fuck himself until he earns a reason for the public to think otherwise. This is ridiculous, sorry. It’s fine (though wrong IMHO) to say he should never be allowed to play again. But to try and say he should be allowed back in, but not for several years just isn’t realistic. Given the length of an NFL career, and the intensity of the demands on the body, pretty much any more time banned from playing would have ended Vick’s career. You might think that is justifiable, in which case say it. Don’t hide behind letting him come back at a time when it would be essentially impossible for him to come back. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/47 "2009-09-28T21:21:35Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I don’t disagree with what you say here. My point was that in both cases a crime was committed. In both cases the perpetrator was punished by the state (for some definition of punished - Vick was actually punished much more harshly FWIW). Little actually committed a very similar crime even _after_ his punishment (although he didn’t kill anyone this time - and was acquitted on the DUI). > > And yet, on this past Sunday, I heard thousands cheering when Little got a sack. And folks in this thread are calling for Vick to have a brain hemorrhage. > > Either a sports hero can be rehabilitated by serving the mandated punishment for their crime, or they can not. Picking and choosing just because dogs are cute or Vick doesn’t seem “sorry enough” makes no sense to me. DUI is sort of the-crime-that-other-people-commit in our society. Everyone I know hates drunk drivers and damn near every one of them has driven drunk. In any objective analysis, it’s does more harm to society than dogfighting, but these things are never really objective. And I think most people get the impression that someone who can do what Vick did to dogs isn’t very far removed, if removed at all, from being able to do it to humans. They’re a very dear species to us, our “best friends.” So, in the real life discussions I’ve had about this, Vick is seen more as a torturer and a murderer than a dogfighter (emotionally, not factually, remember.) And murder and torture are worse than DUI. That being said, I don’t know anything about this Little fellow, but if he killed someone DUI and was given a second chance, and then got _another_ DUI, he shouldn’t be playing either. The large businesses in our society only seem to have standards when the bottom line is affected, and Vick and Little obviously aren’t hurting the bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/48 "2009-09-28T21:23:08Z")
> [@villa](#): > > to try and say he should be allowed back in, but not for several years just isn’t realistic. Don’t hide behind letting him come back at a time when it would be essentially impossible for him to come back. Excuse me, what are you talking about? I don’t think Michael Vick should ever set foot on a football field again. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/49 "2009-09-28T21:37:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Excuse me, what are you talking about? I don’t think Michael Vick should ever set foot on a football field again. Well, I based it on this: [QUOTE=Cisco] Well, contrary to most Christians, this atheist believes in forgiveness. But Vick is nowhere near it yet. It’s been, what, a year? You’ll have to forgive me for not buying the PR blitz. If the NFL had any scruples whatsoever he would not be playing. Then maybe he could go on a public-speaking tour to raise awareness about dogfighting and animal abuse. After a few years of that, I would be a long way towards forgiving him. As of now he just wants to play ball (literally and figuratively), and doesn’t deserve an ounce of credit or forgiveness. He can go fuck himself until he earns a reason for the public to think otherwise. [/QUOTE] The implication I got was that once he earned forgiveness, he should be allowed to lead a normal life, without unnecessary restrictions. Apparently that isn’t the case. I apologize for reading too much into what you meant by forgiving someone. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/50 "2009-09-28T21:53:09Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, I based it on this: > > The implication I got was that once he earned forgiveness, he should be allowed to lead a normal life, without unnecessary restrictions. Apparently that isn’t the case. I apologize for reading too much into what you meant by forgiving someone. Sorry, I see what you mean. I guess I just mean that if Vick rededicated his life to doing something positive for animals, I would have no problem personally forgiving him. Not that my personal forgiveness means a fart in a wind tunnel to him, but there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/51 "2009-09-29T03:57:37Z")
He served his time. He paid his fine. I am not happy he is allowed to play football again. But I can live with it. But I do not believe he regrets what he did to dogs. I still think he regrets getting caught. I think Vick would go back into it in 2 seconds if he could get away with it. I watch football and he put on a good show. I do not know if he can be a good player again. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/52 "2009-09-29T04:25:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > DUI is sort of the-crime-that-other-people-commit in our society. Everyone I know hates drunk drivers and damn near every one of them has driven drunk. In any objective analysis, it’s does more harm to society than dogfighting, but these things are never really objective. And I think most people get the impression that someone who can do what Vick did to dogs isn’t very far removed, if removed at all, from being able to do it to humans. They’re a very dear species to us, our “best friends.” So, in the real life discussions I’ve had about this, Vick is seen more as a torturer and a murderer than a dogfighter (emotionally, not factually, remember.) And murder and torture are worse than DUI. > > That being said, I don’t know anything about this Little fellow, but if he killed someone DUI and was given a second chance, and then got _another_ DUI, he shouldn’t be playing either. The large businesses in our society only seem to have standards when the bottom line is affected, and Vick and Little obviously aren’t hurting the bottom line. I think this is a pretty insightful post. However, I don’t think any of the NFL players who drove drunk and killed people or strangled hookers or whatever ought to be playing now. It’s weird to accuse people of a double standard when it isn’t asked in the thread what should have happened to the people with more serious crimes. Fuck them, too - and also fuck Michael Vick. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/53 "2009-09-29T16:06:28Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > However, I don’t think any of the NFL players who drove drunk and killed people or strangled hookers or whatever ought to be playing now. It’s weird to accuse people of a double standard when it isn’t asked in the thread what should have happened to the people with more serious crimes. Fuck them, too - and also fuck Michael Vick. That’s a perfectly reasonable approach to take. I didn’t bring up Little to point out a double-standard, but to highlight that there are two ways to deal with criminal behavior among sports stars. Either they are forever banned/shunned, or they serve there penalty to society and are then re-admitted to the games. The Little story seems to point out that both the NFL and NFL fans by and large choose to cheer for criminals if they serve there time (and help the team win, of course). Also, **Cisco** ’s response does point out that there is a cultural effect on what crimes are tolerated by the fan base. DUI is something that a large percentage of NFL fans can see (and often have seen) themselves committing. Dogfighting is not (or shooting yourself or someone else for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/54 "2009-09-29T17:36:49Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Sorry, I see what you mean. I guess I just mean that if Vick rededicated his life to doing something positive for animals, I would have no problem personally forgiving him. Not that my personal forgiveness means a fart in a wind tunnel to him, but there ya go. So what jobs should a convicted criminal who has served his time be allowed to hold? Is it a salary cap type thing - he can only earn minimum wage? I can see restricting the employment of an ex-con based on relevant factors - a convicted child abuser not being allowed to work in a day care center; a convicted drug offender not being given the power to prescribe drugs; Michael Vick not being allowed to be a dog breeder. But last thing I check, and Cleveland aside, the NFL has bugger all to do with dogs. If he isn’t allowed to work, who should support Vick? If he is allowed to work, how do we determine what jobs he should be eligible for? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/55 "2009-09-29T17:45:45Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > QFT. Beyond “his disrespect for the lives of animals”, he’s also showing disrespect for the lives of humans. By breeding dangerous dogs, he’s enabling walking deadly weapons. What, he was breeding some other kind of dogs too? Something _other_ than pit bulls, which are famous for their deference and tolerance toward humans? [QUOTE=Pit Bull Rescue Central] Traits like human aggression, severe shyness, and instability are not typically found in the APBT breed, nor are they acceptable. Dogs with these traits are not good representatives of the breed and should not be placed into adoptive homes. Those who wish to label these breeds as “dangerous” are often quick to insist that the dogfighting aspect of their history somehow means that they are inclined to “fight” humans. This is simply wrong. A central fact of pit bulls’ history is that their lineage actually makes them **less** inclined to be aggressive toward humans. For over 160 years, they have been systematically bred away from human aggressiveness. As Malcolm Gladwell (author of The Tipping Point, Blink and Outliers) explains in an article published in The New Yorker in 2006: Pit bulls were not bred to fight humans. On the contrary: a dog that went after spectators, or its handler, or the trainer, or any of the other people involved in making a dogfighting dog a good dogfighter was usually put down. (The rule in the pit-bull world was “Man-eaters die.”) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/56 "2009-09-29T17:50:27Z")
Not totally opposed to your view, **Sailboat** , but quoting from something other than the **Pit Bull Rescue Center** might be a tad more convincing. Also I am not sure the last line… > [@](#): > > (The rule in the pit-bull world was “Man-eaters die.”) … is necessary very helpful to the idea of pitbulls as not dangerous to humans. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/57 "2009-09-29T18:35:06Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > What, he was breeding some other kind of dogs too? Something _other_ than pit bulls, which are famous for their deference and tolerance toward humans? I would discuss this with you reasonably, but I’m afraid I’d be wasting my time as these arguments have been made before and summarily ignored by those who don’t want to hear them. Rather, I’ll just point out that, [per the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm), pit bulls are far more likely to be involved in dog-related fatalities than any other breed. By nature I’m a dog defender, and I recognize that it is very possible to raise a pit bull who will not attack. However, I can’t imagine that training them to fight and kill other dogs as Vick did makes them any more “deferent and tolerant of humans”. What Vick was doing was dangerous, both to other animals and to humans. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/58 "2009-09-29T19:01:58Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > I would discuss this with you reasonably, but I’m afraid I’d be wasting my time as these arguments have been made before and summarily ignored by those who don’t want to hear them. Rather, I’ll just point out that, [per the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm), pit bulls are far more likely to be involved in dog-related fatalities than any other breed. I can’t tell if that is the discredited Clifton study or not, but the time frame seems about right. At any rate, it acknowledges that it cannot determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, which pretty much renders your point moot. > [@](#): > > The findings in this report are subject to at least two limitations. First, because death-certificate data were not available, the two sources used for case finding in 1995-1996 probably underestimated the number of DBRFs and may represent only 74% of actual cases (1,2). Second, to definitively determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, breed-specific fatality rates should be calculated. The numerator for such rates requires complete ascertainment of deaths and an accurate determination of the breed involved, and the denominator requires reliable breed-specific population data (i.e., number of deaths involving a given breed divided by number of dogs of that breed). However, such denominator data are not available, and official registration or licensing data cannot be used because owners of certain breeds may be less likely than those owning other breeds to register or license their animals (3). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/59 "2009-09-29T21:02:40Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I can’t tell if that is the discredited Clifton study or not, but the time frame seems about right. At any rate, it acknowledges that it cannot determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, which pretty much renders your point moot. Are you arguing that Vick’s breeding and training of fighting dogs didn’t endanger humans? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624/60 "2009-09-29T22:03:39Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > No one is claiming that Vick should be forgiven. No one but you apparently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-thought-you-knew-michael-vick/511624.md?page=4)