# If you wanted to breed a dog for maximum general intelligence which breeds would you cross? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804 "2017-02-02T03:13:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/21 "2017-02-02T22:24:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Standard poodles are hunting dogs, bred for intelligence and trainability. Miniature and toy poodles are another story. I don’t know… our miniature was whip-smart as well. And had all the hunting dog instincts as well. He just wasn’t a big dog- in the same ballpark as cocker spaniels and beagles, so not tiny either. I think a lot of people don’t necessarily realize just how big standard poodles are and confuse miniatures with them; we had people often say things like “I like normal poodles like him, not those minature things!”, not realizing that he’s a miniature and they’re disliking the toy and teacup varants of the breed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/22 "2017-02-02T22:30:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So let’s cross a poodle with a wolf (which, I’m assuming without researching, must be as smart as any dog)–if for no other reason that the ability to call the offspring poolfs or woodles. Wolves are smart, but in different ways than dogs. For example, wolves do not look for nor do they pick up cues from humans the way dogs do. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/23 "2017-02-03T01:50:41Z")
My BC is scary smart, but very neurotic and obsessive about certain things (“we’re going inside already? But you’ve only thrown the ball 1,032 times!!”) Our current all-around smartest dog is the 8-month-old pit bull. ---
**Author:** ![scootergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@scootergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scootergirl)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/24 "2017-02-03T02:10:01Z")
Afghan Hound and Irish Setter. Haha, just kidding. That could possibly produce the opposite result. I would cross a Border Collie and an Australian Cattle Dog. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/25 "2017-02-03T02:50:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t know… our miniature was whip-smart as well. And had all the hunting dog instincts as well. > > He just wasn’t a big dog- in the same ballpark as cocker spaniels and beagles, so not tiny either. > > I think a lot of people don’t necessarily realize just how big standard poodles are and confuse miniatures with them; we had people often say things like “I like normal poodles like him, not those minature things!”, not realizing that he’s a miniature and they’re disliking the toy and teacup varants of the breed. I knew a Whippet-Beagle Oops dog that was really impressively smart. That dog could have been in pictures. I swear her understanding of English was unmatched. She was trained by an idiot, and still ended up really well-trained. Even mediocre dogs can end up pretty good with brilliant trainers, but this dog’s owner had a day-in-June IQ, and had actually been in a lot of remedial classes in high school, and still had this dog heeling off-leash, doing tricks, fetching specific toys by name, and doing all sorts of amazing stuff. Personally, I had a Pittie-GSD who was surprisingly smart. She was an Oops dog as well. She was the product of a Pit bought to be trained as a watch dog, whose owners were older, and harbored the misbelief that dogs had to go through one heat before being spayed to “grow up” and be good watch dogs. Anyway, she got out, and got with a pedigreed show GSD who lived catty-corner to them. He was out to stud anyway. The puppy I got looked very bully, and had a Pit personality in the sense of wanting to be indoors at night, and was very attached to me, and was high-energy and liked to climb, but she was trainable, more like a Shepherd, once she matured. She knew over 100 words, NEVER jumped on people, and in fact, would sit quietly at people’s feet when she wanted pet. She did several tricks, including rolling over, shaking paws, holding a treat on her nose, and opening puzzles. She could pass every part of the Canine Good Citizen Test except the separation anxiety part. She could heel off leash, and look left and right before she crossed a street. I could put that dog in a lie down stay, and walk 100 feet away from her while twirling her favorite toy in the air. She would NOT get up until I called her. So there’s some anecdotal evidence for some unusual breed crosses being rather bright. I think in each case, you had a breed that was very trainable in the conventional sense mixed with a breed that was extremely motivated to please its owner, and got lucky enough to get the best of both. You won’t always get that lucky, though. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/26 "2017-02-03T02:56:12Z")
Pit bulls are not known for intelligence but I would certainly have some pit bull in the mix. Toughness is an important element in learning. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/27 "2017-02-03T03:03:41Z")
Our dog is extremely intelligent despite being part beagle. The other part is Australian Cattle Dog, though. She has the intelligence of one and temperament of the other. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/28 "2017-02-03T05:07:58Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Pit bulls are not known for intelligence but I would certainly have some pit bull in the mix. Toughness is an important element in learning. My brother’s pit bull is remarkably gentle and patient, but Lord, is it one dumb dog! ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/29 "2017-02-03T08:02:23Z")
There’s actually a medium-sized standard poodle. I knew one, and he was very smart and also quite biddable, two factors that go into making a dog seem intelligent. There’s a special name for them, Moyen, but they are considered “standard” at least according to his owner and his papers. Great temperament, too. (Although the two smaller sized poodle breeds can also have good temperaments or not, depending on their breeders.) ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/30 "2017-02-03T08:21:10Z")
If I may tack a related question on to this thread, how adaptable are BC? Specifically, if we adopted a rescue/adult dog? We would love a BC but will be in our early 60s by the time we move to a suitable property. I am strongly opposed to adopting puppies and kittens when you are too old to be reasonably sure you’ll outlive them. I’m 58 and my husband is 60, so from now on we are only going to adopt adult animals. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/31 "2017-02-03T08:31:43Z")
Bulldogs seem to be surprising intelligent, at least when it comes to knowing how to propel and ride upon things. [Cite](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bulldogs+riding) [Cite](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bulldog+riding+in+a+toy+truck) ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/32 "2017-02-03T09:31:44Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > There’s actually a medium-sized standard poodle. I knew one, and he was very smart and also quite biddable, two factors that go into making a dog seem intelligent. There’s a special name for them, Moyen, but they are considered “standard” at least according to his owner and his papers. Great temperament, too. (Although the two smaller sized poodle breeds can also have good temperaments or not, depending on their breeders.) Moyen is French for “medium”. The French Kennel Club recognizes the Moyen poodles as being between the Miniature and the Standard in size, at 14-18 inches at the shoulder. All the other Kennel Clubs just use 10-15 for the Miniature and anything over 15 for Standard. (Toy poodles are under 10"). As I understand it, poodles all have one standard, and toys can be bred with standards, and the resulting puppies can be shown in whichever size category they fit. But as a practical matter, most breeders stick with their size category, so that they can have a better control on the pups. ---
**Author:** ![StrangeBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e480ec/32.png) [@StrangeBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrangeBird)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/33 "2017-02-03T11:32:27Z")
> [@scootergirl](#): > > Afghan Hound and Irish Setter. Haha, just kidding. That could possibly produce the opposite result. I would cross a Border Collie and an Australian Cattle Dog. We had Irish Setters growing up - I think they are viewed as dumb because they have a puppy-like playfulness even as adults. To me, they don’t seem to have been less smart than the border collie mix or the golden retriever we also had. More generally, cross breeding any two dogs isn’t going to give you a genius dog in the first generation no matter what you cross breed. You’d need to keep selecting for the smartest pups, whilst also screening out undesirable traits (such as health issues) and making sure the gene pool doesn’t get too narrow. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/34 "2017-02-03T23:29:54Z")
I have to stand up for Irish Setters, too! They are both intelligent and intuitive, but they mature very late in life, usually between 3 and 4 years. They get a reputation for being dumb because they are silly and love to clown around and are puppies at heart until the day they die. However, as shown by the one I have now, they are very observant and quick to put facts together. Mine loves rawhide and no matter how well I hide them, he will find them and find a way to get to them. He is also a whiz at getting a treat out of his kong, he is far quicker at it than any of my other dogs have been. ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/35 "2017-02-05T03:58:24Z")
I’d go with Poodle X GSD or one of the Belgians-probably a Malinaux because I like their style. And I’d try to tweezer in a bit of Airedale or another of the working terriers. But no matter what pure breed or mutt blend you’ve got, it takes enrichment and education to bring out the smarts in a puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Waxwinged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Waxwinged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waxwinged)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/36 "2017-02-05T20:07:12Z")
Lab/border collie (disclaimer: we’ve got one; I’ve been around pure breeds for both, and the combination’s better as a general trick-dog, imho). I think labs have a more amiable nature, vs the scary-concentration of border collies, which makes the mix a bit more biddable/pleasant to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804/37 "2017-02-06T02:13:03Z")
You know, Dobermans deserve a mention, too. They’re a really good choice for people looking for clever dogs. They’re athletic and smart. They’re good at everything they do. If I wanted a guard dog, I would get a Dobie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-wanted-to-breed-a-dog-for-maximum-general-intelligence-which-breeds-would-you-cross/778804.md?page=1)