# If you went to Ancient Greece, how much could you invent? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500 "2004-11-13T01:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/21 "2004-11-14T07:43:49Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > BTW, the subject of this thread brings to mind a lot of what was covered in James Burke’s books and TV shows. Exactly the point I was about to make. The problems that **CalMeacham** and others have mentioned, such as needing paper for a printing press brought to mind the [**Connections**](http://www.roycecarlton.com/speakers/burke.html) series that were shown on PBS. The examples they gave were much stranger than the connection between paper and the printing press. > [@](#): > > **“How the popularity of underwear in the 12th century led to the invention of the printing press.” > or > “How the arrival of the cannon led to the development of movies.”** > [@kitarak](#): > > **I know enough basic physics and chemistry that I can teach them the fundamental principles, and in particular the fundamental ideas of scientific investigation.** **Chairman Pow** had a little different take on this than I do, but basically we agree that selling the scientific method to the ancient Greeks would be almost impossible. They arrived at ideas by using deductive, not inductive thinking and the idea of getting their hands dirty…well that was what slaves did. > [@Squire Trelane](#): > > \*\* Could you invent insurance? Stock trading? Interest-based banking? > > Loan sharking? A casino? Pyramid scams? Rigged sports events?\*\* I googled “insurance” and would you believe that they had insurance in Sumer and Babylon around 3000 B.C.? The stock market would require at least the telegraph. Rothchild made a killing in England by using homing pigeons to get reports on who won the battle at Waterloo. Rigged sports events? What would you call **Lions vs. Christians**? :eek: The best bet I would say would be the casino. As someone mentioned games would be easy to make but just as easy to copy. However, with a little knowledge of statistics and of poker, blackjack, craps, etc. you could make a bundle. Another google provided the information that it would have been a bigger success in China than in Greece. I’ll close with my original response when I saw the OP, which was “Wouldn’t it be a shame if I went to ancient Greece and taught them to build skyscrapers?” ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/22 "2004-11-14T08:45:21Z")
New math ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/23 "2004-11-14T09:06:41Z")
Flush toilettes, sewer systems, boiler, hot and cold running water, heating…that is pretty simple stuff that I don’t believe was common in those days. Then, from the money you would make off of that, go for some craftsmen to help build a bicycle, train with a steam engine and a yoyo for the kids. With the money you make off of that, it would only be a matter of time before you would be the Bill Gates of Greece and you could start financing some of the smarter craftsmen to dream of electricity and creation of other product that are beyond their realm of thought. So, taking this thread…which I too have often thought of …even further…what would someone from the year 3020 try to make to prove he was from the future? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/24 "2004-11-14T10:45:03Z")
\>\>\>\>\>build a bicycle, train with a steam engine and a yoyo for the kids. The yoyo would be possible. The bicycle and steam engine wouldn’t for the reasons already given. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/25 "2004-11-14T10:57:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey those sound like cool books, but what if you make the assumption that you get ideal conditions that probably wouldn’t have happened. Say that people want your advice and want your inventions and basically consider you god-like, except without any kind of threat to your life. Yes. The chicks would probably want your cock. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/26 "2004-11-14T11:31:30Z")
Speaking of literature there’s the story “The Deadly Mission of Phineas Snodgrass” by Fredrick Pohl. The story of a man who went back and taught the Romans all about 20th century sanitation and disease control but forgot to tell 'em anything about population control… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/27 "2004-11-14T21:10:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Then, from the money you would make off of that, go for some craftsmen to help build a bicycle, train with a steam engine and a yoyo for the kids. Believe it or not, the ancient Greeks had the yo-yo, athough they didn’t call it that. I found out about this in an old issue of the _Journal of Hellenic Studies_ while looking for something else. There’s an ancient Greek statue holding a yo-yo. The article called it an _aristobolus_. At the time the article was written, I dont think the word “yo-yo” had come to the Western world. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/28 "2004-11-14T21:49:15Z")
Depending upon which era and society you wound up in, crop rotation alone would make a major impact. Speaking particularly of ancient Greece and Rome, though, one must keep in mind the societies and mindsets. I suspect the trick would be avoiding the wrong personal situation. RIGHT PERSONAL SITUATION: "Someone get the Emperor Honorius on the horn. I’ve got the solution to his Visigoth problem – it’s called a “trebuchet.” We’ll also see about something called “napalm.” WRONG PERSONAL SITUATION: “Today’s invention, honored and beloved Master, is called “inoculation.” It’ll make your soldiers immune to certain plagues. While I’m here, I humbly beseech you to allow for two bits of meat in my daily meal, instead of one, and beg you not to beat me stupid again after dinner tonight.” …a situation that Heinlein’s hero, Hugh Farnham, understood pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/29 "2004-11-14T22:15:24Z")
You might point out the advantages of Arabic numerals. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/30 "2004-11-14T22:17:29Z")
An excellent book on the kinds of things the ancients _did_ have is \*[Ancient Inventions\*](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=mHu16BjzyO&isbn=0345401026&itm=3) another one is [_Ancient Engineers_](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=mHu16BjzyO&isbn=0880294566&itm=2). Now, as to what could be invented, the best thing to do, as others have said, would be to take things which have an obvious and immediate practical use, but that doesn’t mean you can’t take things which _don’t_ have obvious and immediate practical uses. You simply introduce those _after_ you’ve established yourself as the “Scotty” of Ancient Greece. For example, a flintlock rifle, would have instant appeal to any military person of the day, and with that, you could use it to introduce the idea of gunpowder and advanced metalworking (though the Greeks [weren’t exactly slouches in that area](http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9610/antikytheracomputer.htm)). Many modern technological ideas would be pretty useless, but anything from the 19th Century back, should be possible for them. Heck, even something as simple as a better pump, would be beneficial to mining operations of the era, and if you could take seeds from the Americas, you could greatly improve their diet. [aside] **delphica** , what kind of lost wax casting do you do?[/aside] ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/31 "2004-11-14T22:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > An excellent book on the kinds of things the ancients did have is Ancient Inventions another one is Ancient Engineers. **The Ancient Engineers** is a classic, and it was written y the same L. Sprague decamp who wrote the books and story I cited above. deCamp was a fascinating writer whose fiction (aside from the Conan stories he wrote or rewrote) are mostly out of print, undeservedly. He also wrote a lot of mostly-neglected historical novels which I find iresistable. If you can find them, read **The Bronze God of Rhodes** (about the building of the Colossus of Rhodes. It reminds me a lot of Ken Follett’s book about the building of a Cathedral, “The Pillars of the Earth” especially in the way an awful lot of the book happens before anyone builds anything.) **The Dragon of the Ishtar Gate** is something o a classic, about a group of adventurers in ancient Mesopotamia trying to get a dragon from Africa. \*\*An Eephant for Aristotle[/] describes the journey of one of Alexander the Great’s generals bringing an elephant back from India for the reek sage, on a whim from Alexander. de Camp makes a cse that something like this had to have happened, and it’s a fascinating read. (The elephant has to walk the whole way. And there are very few bridges, none of which can carry an elephant.) ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/32 "2004-11-14T23:14:03Z")
Triangular sails. The Ancient Greeks used rectangular sails; I’d write up plans for sail arrangements based on modern sloops, with a main sail and jib, makes tacking a helluva lot easier and uses EXISTING technology. Its also not so radical that nobody would believe it- you’re proposing a _better_ sailboat, maybe also bring up hull and keel designs that would allow them to build ships that could survive waters outside the Mediterranean. The compass, similarly, would be another easy invention. Both of these would speed up sea travel, allowing people to get around quicker and to explore farther. A hot-air balloon would probably also be feasable, as would a glider. Though I would figure a balloon would be easier to get into the air (dunno if I could build a glider that actually flew- a lot of present-day folks have trouble wtih this in contests). Balloons would also be useful for military and exploration. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/33 "2004-11-14T23:17:04Z")
I remember reading a story along these lines. The hero is depressed. In his own words, “They don’t the tools to make the tools to make the tools that I need.” ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/34 "2004-11-14T23:29:50Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > A hot-air balloon would probably also be feasable, as would a glider. Though I would figure a balloon would be easier to get into the air (dunno if I could build a glider that actually flew- a lot of present-day folks have trouble wtih this in contests). Balloons would also be useful for military and exploration. If you had one, you could have the other. Researchers have proved that whomever made the Nasca Lines, wove cloth tight enough that it could have been used for a hot air balloon. (Whether or not they _used_ it for that purpose, is another matter.) That cloth would work just fine for wing coverings, and building a decent glider really isn’t all that hard. Gliders were around for _years_ before the Wright Brothers ever flew. Most of the “fluggtaggers” don’t seem to be all that interested in studying the old designs. [Here’s a book](http://www.abetitles1.com/Title/2801051/The+Boy+Mechanic+Vol+2.html) for **kids** from 1915 which tells you how to build a glider capable of carrying a person. And while we’re on the subject, [pretty much every book on this site](http://lindsaybks.com/) would come in handy if you were in Ancient Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/35 "2004-11-15T01:02:10Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Researchers have proved that whomever made the Nasca Lines, wove cloth tight enough that it could have been used for a hot air balloon. Which researchers would that be? Erich von Däniken ? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/36 "2004-11-15T01:15:53Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > Which researchers would that be? Erich von Däniken ? :rolleyes: Actually, no. [Maria Reiche](http://www.morien-institute.org/mariareiche.html), a German mathematician, and unlike Daniken, she doesn’t think that aliens gave them the technology. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/37 "2004-11-15T02:02:15Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > **Chairman Pow** had a little different take on this than I do, but basically we agree that selling the scientific method to the ancient Greeks would be almost impossible. They arrived at ideas by using deductive, not inductive thinking and the idea of getting their hands dirty…well that was what slaves did… I completely disagree with this … well except for the dirty hands thing. I think introducing the scientific methof would be about the most powerful thing that you could do without having an enormous technical background yourself. The key would be to convince them that logic is not sufficient for all answer, and you’d have to approach that by using experiementation to disprove some of their logical conclusions. So ok, let them have their slaves perform the experiments. In fact, introduce the term “lab monkey”. They’d love it. The rich intellectuals would compete with experimental labs to prove their pet theories or disprove their rivals. Outside of that, let’s see… Waterwheels? Windmills? Were they around yet? Catamaran sailing vessels? Maybe some animal husbandry techniques to breed more productive animals. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/38 "2004-11-15T02:14:26Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Outside of that, let’s see… Waterwheels? Windmills? Were they around yet? I’m not sure when they began, but the Romans did have them. > [@](#): > > Catamaran sailing vessels? I’m not sure how much more useful those would be than simply better sail design. > [@](#): > > Maybe some animal husbandry techniques to breed more productive animals. They already had those. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/39 "2004-11-15T02:18:53Z")
Having re-read the OP, I’m trying to get a better handle on what you’re really trying to get at. You say everybidy accepts you’re from the future, and wants you to ptovide them with everything you can think of, and thay you know all sorts of technical stuff. Are you asking how long it would take for the society of 2000 years ago to build its infrastructure into something approximating what we have today? Given of course that this knowledge travels back and everybody buys into it whole hog and gets to building. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500/40 "2004-11-15T20:27:59Z")
IRT steam engines: Any culture that can make closely-fitted bronze, brass, or iron armor has the necessary metal-working skills to create a working steam engine. The earliest steam engines were not efficient, smooth-working devices, but were low-pressure, leaky, inefficient, and less-than impressive designs. However, for all those drawbacks, they still did a better job than a gang of workers, slaves, or livestock as a power source. Usually. Witness: [The Savery and Newcomb engines](http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/newcomen5.htm). Many early steam engines didn’t even attempt to recover the condensing steam from the piston, but rather simply exhausted it to the air. Efficiency nightmare! But they worked well enough to keep the mines dry, and that was enough. Bring a creaky, leaky brass or bronze steam-driven pump to the owner of a Greek mine, and you’ve probably got a customer. IRT Water power: Water turbines could also be made with classical Greek technology - You’d cast the parts out of bronze instead of iron, but it would work very nearly as well. The concept and execution of a water turbine is surprisingly simple, and they produce a LOT of power from a relatively small installation. [Observe](http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html). Of course, you wouldn’t very likely be creating electricity (at least not at first!), but instead would be using the mechanical energy to operate mills. Both the simple steam engine and the water turbine would provide enough of a boost in available watts/person in the local community to permit a serious raising of the local standards of living, which _may_ kick off other local productivity improvements, _possibly_ leading to the beginings of an industrial boom. Or, they might just get you killed, for goring someone else’s economic cow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-went-to-ancient-greece-how-much-could-you-invent/274500.md?page=3)