# If you were a hero when would a villain become worthy of death in your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-books-manga\ **Created:** [October 31, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341 "2023-10-31T03:50:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/21 "2023-10-31T19:35:03Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > The issue of lethal force and whether or not certain comic villains like the Joker, Red Skull, Magneto etc should be killed by the heroes has been debated for decades. > > With this in mind if you were a comic book hero what would it take for a villain to cross the threshold from “Defeat and surrender to the authorities” to “Defeat and kill immediately”? So let’s talk about the basic assumption of “comic book hero”. In Marvel/DC, many “heroes” have tacit or explicit local or federal mandate to allow them to function. The Avengers were legally empowered in various times/continuities, as has Superman, as have others. Some skirt this by being subject to weird varieties of ambassadors of nations that don’t agree to prosecute (as do some villains!). So it boils down to what rights has the supporting government given me, and is the target been designated as a “wanted dead or alive” - such as using an IRL example, Osama bin Laden. Because if the i’s are dotted, and the t’s are crossed, I absolutely would kill Joker and the Red Skull based on their actions to date (using two of your examples). Sure, it might cut into my merchandising profits if parents find me too brutal and won’t buy the kids my action figures, but it’s worth it in those two examples. But even if I have the right to kill them in the course of duty, I’m not going to kill mooks and the like, because the system should be able to deal with them, and I don’t want to be seen as a heartless killer (see merchandising again!). If I’m in a world where I’m an out and out vigilante, hunted by the police as much as the rest of the criminals are, then I’ll kill those I hold responsible (again, bosses and lieutenants, not so much mooks) if I can -get away with it-. Make it look like an inter-gang level conflict, or inter-group fighting. I want the cops/feds to think that while I’m a criminal, they’d rather let me take out other criminals, and stay under the radar. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/22 "2023-10-31T19:35:59Z")
In the real world, we can lock people up with a reasonable expectation they won’t get out to murder again. That just isn’t the case in the comic book world with villains like Carnage, Venom, Poison Ivy, Joker, and Green Goblin. The Joker could be lying helpless on the ground and a Gotham police officer could blow his brains out and I’d be hard pressed to convict him were I serving on his jury. That officer could reasonably argue he was in fear for his life and the life of others. @ASL_v2.0, is right. The idea of heroes in the comic book sense is rather perverse when you really think about it. You think I want some dude dressed like a bat beating people up just because he thinks they’re criminals? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/23 "2023-10-31T19:39:45Z")
So, at least for your superman-type super-powered superheros, the answer has to be never, because its a slippery slope: - You have god like powers and almost zero accountability - If you say one villains is worthy of death, what about all the other godawful people doing awful things in the world, are their victims not worth protecting? (we all know how reliable the prisons and mental institutions are in Superheroland) - And what about the people who have not done terrible things yet, but you are sure they will? (well pretty sure, well on average they are more likely to commit murder than other people) And pretty soon you are the avenging god of death on judgement day. That’s my two cents. I think that was the point Zack Snyder, and maybe the original comic book authors (I don’t actually read comic books 🙂 ), was trying to make in his superman films (he did a completely shitty job of it, but I _think_ that was his point) ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/24 "2023-10-31T19:46:46Z")
I’ll just go with the judicial system. If they want me to off them I will. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/25 "2023-10-31T20:05:02Z")
If I am Superman-level, then… Welcome to my dystopia. If I am Batman-level; I won’t be powerful enough to have a dystopia, but I will not have some counter-productive “no killing the super villain EVER” rule. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/26 "2023-10-31T20:10:39Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > And pretty soon you are the avenging god of death on judgement day. You say that as if its a bad thing. I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/27 "2023-10-31T23:13:23Z")
If it were me, I’d have (and encourage) a “mad dog” policy. If you’re killing innocents, don’t expect to make it to Arkham, Rykers, or whatever. It would discourage storylines like the Joker, who’s apparently killed _hundreds_ of people but Batman won’t break his rule because he’s “sick.” It’s too bad he’s sick. His death would be a tragedy. It would also be a death. I had similar problems with the Netflix _Daredevil_, when Matt’s priest says that killing criminals is a sin because it denies them the chance to find redemption and achieve grace. How many innocent souls do we watch die hoping a murderer will turn things around? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/28 "2023-11-01T05:24:34Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > If you say one villains is worthy of death, what about all the other godawful people doing awful things in the world, are their victims not worth protecting? Yep, exactly - if I were a super, why would I care more about the Joker’s paltry bodycount vs the CEOs of oil companies, the Sacklers, or every damn gun manufacturer in the world? If I were the kind of super who kills, and I had Godlike power, I’d be using it like God. The Old Testament God. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/29 "2023-11-01T05:38:04Z")
What, you’re going to tell me that Bruce Wayne, billionaire, does far more harm by his mere existence at the top of an unjust socioeconomic hierarchy than Batman, caped crusader, ever could do “good” by punching the living daylights out of petty criminals? On second thought… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/30 "2023-11-01T08:07:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > @ASL_v2.0, is right. The idea of heroes in the comic book sense is rather perverse when you really think about it. You think I want some dude dressed like a bat beating people up just because he thinks they’re criminals? That’s why I don’t really like crime-fighting superheroes like Batman. Fighting criminals, no matter how eccentric, is society’s job, a systematic problem that requires systematic solutions, not vigilantism. The purpose of superheroes, to me, is to deal with the outliers, the problems that human civilization is not yet able to handle, like superpowered villains, aliens, demons, mutants, killer robots and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/31 "2023-11-01T13:37:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s why I don’t really like crime-fighting superheroes like Batman. Fighting criminals, no matter how eccentric, is society’s job, a systematic problem that requires systematic solutions, not vigilantism. The purpose of superheroes, to me, is to deal with the outliers, the problems that human civilization is not yet able to handle, like superpowered villains, aliens, demons, mutants, killer robots and the like. In the early days, Superman spent a decent amount of time going after wife beaters, slum lords, run-of-the-mill bank robbers, etc., etc. Sure, maybe you need someone like Spider-Man to take out Doctor Octopus, but shouldn’t Spider-Man have some oversight? For the superhero genre, I recognize it’s inherently silly and I can suspend my disbelief long enough to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/32 "2023-11-01T14:06:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If I were the kind of super who kills, and I had Godlike power, I’d be using it like God. > > The Old Testament God. So I’m somewhat concerned at the number of dopers who are a-ok with using their superpowers to become an avenging genocidal god of death 😉 We need to put tighter controls on radioactive spiders and experiments with intrinsic fields. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/33 "2023-11-01T14:10:25Z")
Show of hands… who here believes they would NOT become deeply cynical about human nature after a relatively short time of being a hero? Anyone? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/34 "2023-11-01T14:11:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So I’m somewhat concerned at the number of dopers who are a-ok with using their superpowers to become an avenging genocidal god of death I said _IF_ I were a murderhero. But I already ruled that out in my first post. > [@Cardigan](#): > > who here believes they would NOT become deeply cynical about human nature after a relatively short time of being a hero? More cynical [than I already am](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-three-categories-for-countries-and-political-parties-useful/992106/12)? Not really likely. > [@Are these three categories for countries and political parties useful?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-three-categories-for-countries-and-political-parties-useful/992106/12): > > _most_ people are a little _bad_. Selfish as well as bigoted and hateful. And _even more_ are either stupid or ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341/35 "2023-11-01T18:13:48Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So I’m somewhat concerned at the number of dopers who are a-ok with using their superpowers to become an avenging genocidal god of death 😉 We need to put tighter controls on radioactive spiders and experiments with intrinsic fields. Hey! I’m Lawful Neutral (with evil tendencies!). That’s why I carefully laid out what I would do with governmental authority and a license to kill. Plus, it’s easier on the mentality that way, you get to offload a lot of the guilty onto the faceless government. Not that I don’t FULLY understand the risks of that IRL - not as a third generation descendant of Jewish families that got out of Europe a scarce generation before WW2. But as @Alessan and @MrDibble correctly point out, many of comics heroes are strangely tunnel-visioned on specific acts and types of criminals, without considering the situations that give rise to them. I mean, if you’re a vigilante, and breaking the law, why spend so much time beating up mooks when the bosses sit pretty and safe? Or corporate criminals. Or corporate polluters who break the law daily but find it cheaper to pay the fines than pay to be compliant with existing laws (sorry, pet peeve, have a friend in the TX DA who will talk about this every time after a few drinks), or genocidal idiots who also happen to be rulers of some pocket (or not so pocket) nation? In the case of Batman, I get it. He’s obviously a high-functioning psychopath, deeply damaged by childhood trauma, and can only focus on eliminating a narrow range of scum that match his profile. It’s stupid, but, hey, whatever. But Superman? That’s cowardice. He knows he’s too powerful for a world where most people are tissue paper to him. Rather than fix things (how about you SHARE some of that Kryptonian mega-tech?) he puts band-aids on things so he can be accepted, without scaring the squishies so much. Well that, plus he has a parent complex about being the perfect son to the parents who adopted him, a circumstance not unknown in the situation. Aaaaaanyway, related digression over. Let’s be honest, most major comics don’t intend to ever portray how human minds work in a serious way, thus the OP. Many, if not most major heroes will have one or more arcs over their careers where they bend or break their own morals for reasons that we find more or less acceptable, but it’ll be retconned, or the target will manage to survive anyway, or they’ll spend an arc or two tormented by guilt / resolving to make up for it, etc. The thing that is key to comics continuing is that both continuity and consequences are flexible. There’s very little permanence, and therefore little to no death, the greatest example of such a consequence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-a-hero-when-would-a-villain-become-worthy-of-death-in-your-opinion/992341.md?page=1)