# If you were granted "Sovereign Citizen" status.. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508 "2013-09-23T13:02:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/1 "2013-09-23T13:02:28Z")
The whole Sovereign Citizen thing is a complete nonsense, I’m sure everone here agrees. However if the US Government, for the yuks of it, decided to offer you Sovereign citizen status, (just you, otherwise the concept is still considered as nutty as ever), what would your new rights and responsibilities be? What could you now do, and get away with. What could you no longer do, and no longer receive? Base this on whatever the prevailing opinion amongst “Sovereign Citizens” is, if there is one. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/2 "2013-09-23T13:20:46Z")
For the bewildered, wiki say that > [@](#): > > Self-described sovereign citizens take the position that they are answerable only to common law and are not subject to any statutes or proceedings at the federal, state or municipal levels, or that they do not recognize U.S. currency and that they are “free of any legal constraints”.They especially reject most forms of taxation as illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/3 "2013-09-23T13:25:06Z")
So 10 other people could come along and take what’s yours? Or when overpowered, do you rely on the state to provide the power of its constabulary to control others? If you want to see REAL cases of anarchy (essentially what we are talking about) look to Somalia, or to civil war Lebanon in the 70’s and 80’s. Or read Heinlein’s “Coventry”. The sovereign citizen would not last against the sovereign gang. Eventually you devolve into tribes or gangs doing what the biggest bully says to do. Otherwise, what’s the mechanism by which government operates? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/4 "2013-09-23T13:37:27Z")
You would at best be a wanderer on the land. You would have no protection from others who may wish to steal your property or harm your person, though they would be protected from your efforts to steal or do harm to them. You would have absolutely no rights, as there is no one to protect them for you. This is assuming of course, that the status is granted without a boat ride and drop off in international waters. Personally I feel anyone who wishes to renounce their citizenship as a US Citizen should be offered that deal (not counting people who actually go to and become a citizen in another country first, of course). The desire of sovereigns is to become a freeloader on the land, receiving services from living in a country with a powerful government that provides roads, services and security, but not to owe anything back to it or society. In this country everyone is free to leave at any time, if anyone will take you. You are free to advocate for change, even if it is completely self serving. You can even ignore your social obligations to a large extent, and only get a minor amount of harassment out of it. You may not stand up to society, and yell it from the rooftops that you do not belong to it, and expect to not be ostracized and marginalized by those you treat with contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/5 "2013-09-23T15:15:45Z")
Since the status is imaginary, this is better suited to IMHO than General Questions. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/6 "2013-09-23T15:58:03Z")
I think I would have to make a point of getting into legal disputes just so that I could yell “Man overboard!” whenever anyone left the courtroom. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/7 "2013-09-23T16:04:37Z")
What are the responsibilities that “Sovereign Citizens” claim to have? Is the fire department obligated to go their houses and, if so, who pays for it? Who do they call when being robbed? Where could they be deported to? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/8 "2013-09-23T17:07:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What are the responsibilities that “Sovereign Citizens” claim to have? None > [@](#): > > Is the fire department obligated to go their houses and, if so, who pays for it? We could put out the fire if we wanted to, but we get to keep the house. > [@](#): > > Who do they call when being robbed? The Natural Law police > [@](#): > > Where could they be deported to? International waters, Antarctica maybe, anywhere that is not yet claimed. Outer Space is fine too, but they have to find their own ride. ---
**Author:** ![jayrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jayrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayrey)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/9 "2013-09-23T17:20:14Z")
Sad to say, I actually knew someone who wanted sovereign citizenship. He said it would allow him to carry a loaded weapon with him anywhere, at any time, to defend himself against the bullies that would attempt to rob him. He said he would carry only gold or silver coins to make purchases and that he would keep track of the changing value of those metals so that his gold dollar would actually buy more than one paper dollar’s worth of goods. I don’t think he ever thought about needing the fire department. If he had children, he would home school them. Truth be told, he was one of the kindest people I’ve ever met, and crazy as a loon. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/10 "2013-09-23T18:59:52Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > If you want to see REAL cases of anarchy (essentially what we are talking about) look to Somalia, or to civil war Lebanon in the 70’s and 80’s. Or read Heinlein’s “Coventry”. The sovereign citizen would not last against the sovereign gang. Eventually you devolve into tribes or gangs doing what the biggest bully says to do. Also see Libya, which is increasingly going the way of Somalia. Basically, there a local warlord or tribal council or something, and those are the guys you want to ingratiate yourself with. There’s a federal government, but as a practical matter it doesn’t matter much who they are or what they want… ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/11 "2013-09-23T19:31:46Z")
Declare war on USA, get defeated, apply for aid to rebuild my infrastructure. [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/12 "2013-09-23T19:44:26Z")
I would immediately renounce my sovereign citizenship and apply for amnesty in the US as a political refugee. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/13 "2013-09-23T20:02:30Z")
> [@jayrey](#): > > He said he would carry only gold or silver coins to make purchases and that he would keep track of the changing value of those metals so that his gold dollar would actually buy more than one paper dollar’s worth of goods.( You’re perfectly free to use gold and silver coins to pay for all your purchases, the only exception is you will need to buy dollars to pay your taxes. Of course, no one else would be obligated to accept gold or silver coins as payment for goods and services. Neither would they be obligated to accept whiskey, goats, cigarettes, beads, buckskins, cowrie shells, or any of the other goods used as money at different times and places throughout history. A gold coin, or a silver coin, is a durable good that can be used as money. But money only works as a medium of exchange if both parties agree. If one party doesn’t agree to treat the good as money, then it isn’t money. The same holds true for Federal Reserve Notes. You aren’t obligated to accept US dollars as payment for goods and services. You can hang up a big sign in front of your store that you only accept gold or silver. The only problem is that you have to pay your taxes in dollars, and you have to accept dollars as a repayment of a debt owed to you. Just don’t let people become indebted to you (“Neither a borrower or a lender be”), and you’re fine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/14 "2013-09-23T20:39:58Z")
The poor clerk at the grocery store doesn’t have the means to look up the current value of whatever you are offering as legal tender. Could you imagine the freakishly long lines that would ensue while both parties negotiated the worth of all the different types of currency that might be used? ---
**Author:** ![jvidmaar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jvidmaar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jvidmaar)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/15 "2013-09-23T21:59:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You would at best be a wanderer on the land. You would have no protection from others who may wish to steal your property or harm your person, though they would be protected from your efforts to steal or do harm to them. You would have absolutely no rights, as there is no one to protect them for you. Not sure I buy this. If a stowaway from some random country manages to gain entry to the U.S., it’s not open season on him, criminally. If I assault and rob an illegal Botswanan in Manhattan, the cops will still arrest and charge me, his status as non-citizen notwithstanding. The same would hold for a Sov. Cit. _You_ may not recognize the NYPD’s jurisdiction over 42nd street, but _they_ still do, so you still benefit from their largess. If by granting Sov. Cit. status, you’re implying that the U.S./state/local gov. are going to carve out any previously owned land as a non-U.S. territory a la San Marino, then you’d be in charge of protecting it from invasion. That’s a separate issue; the rest of us are still not allowed to slap you around in U.S. territory. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/16 "2013-09-26T17:12:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The poor clerk at the grocery store doesn’t have the means to look up the current value of whatever you are offering as legal tender. Could you imagine the freakishly long lines that would ensue while both parties negotiated the worth of all the different types of currency that might be used? Who says the clerk at the grocery store has to accept gold in payment? The store is perfectly free to determine the kinds of transactions it want to undertake. If they only accept US dollars in payment, then that’s their right. You don’t have an obligation to use US dollars to pay for goods and services, neither does anyone else have an obligation to accept gold or silver in payment for goods and services. Just because you have a hard time finding people willing to accept payment in gold that doesn’t make it our problem. ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/17 "2013-09-26T18:54:16Z")
The latest issue of Skeptic Magazine has a pretty good article on The Sovereign Citizen Scam. > **[Skeptic » The Magazine » Current Issue: Volume 28 Number 2](https://www.skeptic.com/magazine/)** > > Skeptic Magazine 28.2 (2023): An in-depth look at the past & future of energy: fossil fuels, fracking, nuclear, renewables, EVs • The Case for Nuclear • Behind the Scenes at the U.S. Department of Energy • The Untold Story of “Gender-Affirming”... Plus they beat up on that fake fortune teller Sylvia Browne. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/18 "2013-09-26T20:34:39Z")
I would park like a motherfucker, all over the place!!! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-were-granted-sovereign-citizen-status/669508/19 "2013-09-26T21:49:47Z")
> [@jvidmaar](#): > > Not sure I buy this. If a stowaway from some random country manages to gain entry to the U.S., it’s not open season on him, criminally. If I assault and rob an illegal Botswanan in Manhattan, the cops will still arrest and charge me, his status as non-citizen notwithstanding. The same would hold for a Sov. Cit. _You_ may not recognize the NYPD’s jurisdiction over 42nd street, but _they_ still do, so you still benefit from their largess. > > If by granting Sov. Cit. status, you’re implying that the U.S./state/local gov. are going to carve out any previously owned land as a non-U.S. territory a la San Marino, then you’d be in charge of protecting it from invasion. That’s a separate issue; the rest of us are still not allowed to slap you around in U.S. territory. As coming to this country illegally and trying to join our society is completely different from a citizen trying to legally separate himself from it, I see it a bit differently. There is no sovereign status, so obviously it doesn’t work this way, but if you intentionally revoke your citizenship and burn up your social contract to avoid social responsibilities, I don’t think society should be responsible for protecting you. One among many reasons there is no such status is in fact the implausibility of us taking that stance. If one was granted sov cit stat, they have carved out their own property exactly in the shape of their body, and only they are the only ones responsible for protecting it from invasion. Obviously, this is impractical, which is why the easiest method is simply to drop them off in international waters. Then they can be free from any obligations of society.