# If you whine about political correctness, you're a bigot **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671 "2015-07-20T07:12:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/81 "2015-07-20T16:57:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Gutierrez, principal at Harvey Scott K-8 School, is using political-correctness to control the language of the speaker. A sandwich is a sandwich. How dare someone use the word sandwich in front of someone in the U.S. who might not know what a sandwich is!!! Especially in a U.S. classroom where 99.99% of the people know what a sandwich is. The other 0.01% might like to learn about sandwiches but Gutierrez’s Harvey Scott K-8 School frowns on things like “learning” something new. :smack: I must be dense because I don’t see why calling for more inclusive language is a bad thing. Isn’t the PBJ just being used as an example as to where someone could have used a different term to achieve the desired minority inclusiveness? Where is the “how dare someone…?” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/82 "2015-07-20T17:06:30Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > I must be dense because I don’t see why calling for more inclusive language is a bad thing. Isn’t the PBJ just being used as an example as to where someone could have used a different term to achieve the desired minority inclusiveness? Where is the “how dare someone…?” Did you read the linked article? \*Chuck Barber, who also offers boys’ drum corps at Vernon and Faubion schools in Northeast Portland, approached Gutierrez last year to start up a lunch-time drum class for black and Latino boys once a week. This year, it’ll expand to two classes a week, to accommodate new boys as well as those with experience. At least one parent has a problem with the class, saying it amounts to “blatant discrimination and equity of women, Asians, whites and Native Americans.” “This ‘club’ was approved by the administration, and any girls who complained were brushed off and it was not addressed,” the parent wrote anonymously. Gutierrez denies that any students were turned away from the drum corps, and vehemently rejects any suggestion that it is discrimination to offer a club catering to minority boys. “When white people do it, it is not a problem, but if it’s for kids of color, then it’s a problem?” says Gutierrez, 40, an El Paso, Texas, native whose parents were Mexican immigrants. “Break it down for me. That’s your white privilege, and your whiteness.”\* Gutierrez is obviously a sexist, a racist, a misogynist, and an asshole. Why should this turd ever be in the position of principal in any public school? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/83 "2015-07-20T17:09:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Humor is not a get-out-of-jail free card. I’ve been in this forum for thirteen years now, **BigT**. I know they will never, ever let me out while I’m alive. What I want is a view. I want a browser window where I can see a tweet, or even a Vine. I want to be on a different message board, far away from **DrDeth**. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/84 "2015-07-20T17:19:56Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > I must be dense because I don’t see why calling for more inclusive language is a bad thing. Isn’t the PBJ just being used as an example as to where someone could have used a different term to achieve the desired minority inclusiveness? Where is the “how dare someone…?” …because it’s a fucking sandwich. Teaching what a sandwich is is in no way culturally insensitive or noninclusive. It’s the opposite. Excluding the knowledge of someone who might not be familiar with a sandwich for fear of offending some sense of bread -based cultural sensitivities, continues their exclusion. There is no penalty for not knowing what a sandwich is or not eating them. Don’t know what a sandwich is? Oh here is what it is. Give it a try, if you like. Don’t want to? Cool, continue eating your torta or pita. No pressure. Boom, done. There is no call for sandwich and non sandwich tables or separate sandwich and non sandwich drinking fountains. There is not a tortas only bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/85 "2015-07-20T17:36:17Z")
Was the teacher teaching what a sandwich is? I didn’t get that. Is not the sandwich just an example of how an alternative wording could be used and discussed? Now with regard to the band example: Who is claiming what is PC? I don’t see how a debate over the appropriateness is anything other than a debate. If I argue that the class is beneficial, and you argue that it is not…let’s debate it. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/86 "2015-07-20T17:40:30Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Was the teacher teaching what a sandwich is? I didn’t get that. Is not the sandwich just an example of how an alternative wording could be used and discussed? It’s an example of finding solutions to problems that don’t exist based on imaginary cultural insenstivities. There is literally no need to find alternative wording to a sandwich because a Hispanic child might be eating a torta at home. He can take a look at a sandwich and go “Oh yeah, a torta.” oir alternatively the kid says “What’s that?” It’s a sandwich, like your torta. No need for alternative wording. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/87 "2015-07-20T18:00:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Natalie Maines said something inappropriate in the wrong place at the wrong time. She deserved every bit of criticism she got for that. She did not deserve for her band to basically be ostracized from the country music industry. > > And even if you don’t think it’s intimidation, it’s also not “I’m going to tell everyone what a shit you are” either. It’s “I’m going to try to ruin your life. I’m going to try to tell people not to associate with you lest I accuse them of endorsing your views.” The thing is, this has fuck-all to do with “PC,” and just has to do with the power of media and communication being in the hands of the proles. Laying this at the feet of “PC” is stupid FOXNews-speak, as the Dixie Chicks example shows. People of all stripes are willing to throw their outrage, consequences be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/88 "2015-07-20T18:01:10Z")
[Despite intense criticism, Seattle mayor moves ahead with Muslim homeownership program](http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/2015/07/despite-intense-criticismseattle-mayor-moves-ahead.html) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/89 "2015-07-20T18:08:27Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > It’s an example of finding solutions to problems that don’t exist based on imaginary cultural insenstivities. There is literally no need to find alternative wording to a sandwich because a Hispanic child might be eating a torta at home. He can take a look at a sandwich and go “Oh yeah, a torta.” oir alternatively the kid says “What’s that?” It’s a sandwich, like your torta. No need for alternative wording. In the comments from the article, I found this: > [@Sophia McNeil](#): > > The PBJ reference was not actually about what kids eat for lunch. The comment was in reference to a teacher who used PBJ’s as a topic for a lesson. As a teacher - I know that a very commonly used writing assessment is writing a process piece describing how to make a PBJ. The assumption going in is that obviously everyone knows how to make a PBJ and can describe it. The problem is that this assumption just isn’t true - and assessing kids’ writing side by side, when one understands the topic and the other doesn’t understand it - gives a very biased result. I don’t know enough to either dispute or verify whether the original example cited by Prinicipal Gutierrez was indeed using sandwich-making as a process description assignment, but it seems reasonable to me to advise teachers in diverse environments -such as the very school under discussion- to take cultural differences into account in their lesson plans. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/90 "2015-07-20T18:12:27Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > [Despite intense criticism, Seattle mayor moves ahead with Muslim homeownership program](http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/2015/07/despite-intense-criticismseattle-mayor-moves-ahead.html) Sharia-compliant banking and lending is a real thing, so it’s not like he’s inventing new products. If the plan is for the city to offer the mortgages directly, that would be problematic in that the city shouldn’t be running a bank as such. But if it’s just a matter of allowing Sharia-compliant financial products which don’t violate any existing financial regulations to be offered by local banks - which will in turn allow people to buy houses without violating their religious beliefs - that would seem to be a good thing. What’s the downside here? ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/91 "2015-07-20T18:24:29Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > In the comments from the article, I found this: > I don’t know enough to either dispute or verify whether the original example cited by Prinicipal Gutierrez was indeed using sandwich-making as a process description assignment, but it seems reasonable to me to advise teachers in diverse environments -such as the very school under discussion- to take cultural differences into account in their lesson plans. That kind of thinking is what causes things to bogged down in minutiae. There will ALWAYS be that minority (and it’s not necessarily racial , or gender, it could simply be family culture, maybe a gluten free kid with a peanut allergy) There is nothing wrong with making an asisgnment about making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. If the child doesn’t know what that is, part of their lesson will be to learn what it is and how to make it. IDK, spitballing. It is not, however, ineherently racist or bigoted to bristle against this increasing over senstivity to every single word, assignment, task, outing, interaction, etc. for fear of alienating or offending even one individual no matter how slight. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/92 "2015-07-20T18:36:02Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > That kind of thinking is what causes things to bogged down in minutiae. There will ALWAYS be that minority (and it’s not necessarily racial , or gender, it could simply be family culture, maybe a gluten free kid with a peanut allergy) There is nothing wrong with making an asisgnment about making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. If the child doesn’t know what that is, part of their lesson will be to learn what it is and how to make it. IDK, spitballing. It is not, however, ineherently racist or bigoted to bristle against this increasing over senstivity to every single word, assignment, task, outing, interaction, etc. for fear of alienating or offending even one individual no matter how slight. It’s not “fear of alienating or offending” the students that’s driving Gutierrez’ concern for cultural awareness, it’s the effectiveness of the lessons and the fairness of the evaluations. Yes, there’s several easy things the teacher can do to deal with the different experiential bases of the kids. -One good way, as Gutierrez rightly points out, is to offer/allow discussion and sharing of other food processes. The article does not say that Gutierrez wants to eliminate discussion of PBJ, she’s just cautioning her teachers not to assume homogeneity of cultural knowledge. This should be fairly obvious, and I think you’re rather proving the OP’s point by insisting that it’s just _minutiae_ overly concerned about feelings ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/93 "2015-07-20T18:42:15Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > It’s not “fear of alienating or offending” the students that’s driving Gutierrez’ concern for cultural awareness, it’s the effectiveness of the lessons and the fairness of the evaluations. Yes, there’s several easy things the teacher can do to deal with the different experiential bases of the kids. -One good way, as Gutierrez rightly points out, is to offer/allow discussion and sharing of other food processes. The article does not say that Gutierrez wants to eliminate discussion of PBJ, she’s just cautioning her teachers not to assume homogeneity of cultural knowledge. > > This should be fairly obvious, and I think you’re rather proving the OP’s point by insisting that it’s just _minutae_ overly concerned about feelings But it IS minutiae. The lesson is to learn how to decribe making a sandwich. Part of that process is to know what it is. Some, regardless of culture, race, gender or religion, may not know. It then becomes PART of that lesson to learn it. It’s not racist. It’s not bigotry. It’s not cultural insensitivity. It’s not exclusionary. It’s a part of the lesson. Simply saying someone is a bigot, because a child with a peanut allergy doesn’t know what a PB&J sandwich is, doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/94 "2015-07-20T18:59:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > It’s not “fear of alienating or offending” the students that’s driving Gutierrez’ concern for cultural awareness, it’s the effectiveness of the lessons and the fairness of the evaluations. Yes, there’s several easy things the teacher can do to deal with the different experiential bases of the kids. -One good way, as Gutierrez rightly points out, is to offer/allow discussion and sharing of other food processes. The article does not say that Gutierrez wants to eliminate discussion of PBJ, she’s just cautioning her teachers not to assume homogeneity of cultural knowledge. > > This should be fairly obvious, and I think you’re rather proving the OP’s point by insisting that it’s just _minutiae_ overly concerned about feelings The boss suggests that discussing “sandwiches” is out because the teachers suffer from “white privilege”. Since the boss has some say in the teacher’s future promotions, bonuses, and possibly, their rates of pay, it’s best to do as the boss suggests. No matter how the racist Gutierrez phrases her warning, it’s still PC-style coercion. The teachers are not allowed to use their own cultural experiences, they must use the racist Gutierrez’s cultural experiences. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/95 "2015-07-20T19:01:27Z")
So, really, in truth, its the liberals who are the _real_ racists! ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/96 "2015-07-20T19:09:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Sharia-compliant banking and lending is a real thing, so it’s not like he’s inventing new products. If the plan is for the city to offer the mortgages directly, that would be problematic in that the city shouldn’t be running a bank as such. But if it’s just a matter of allowing Sharia-compliant financial products which don’t violate any existing financial regulations to be offered by local banks - which will in turn allow people to buy houses without violating their religious beliefs - that would seem to be a good thing. > > What’s the downside here? If there is a thing as _Sukuk_, why the need for city approval? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/97 "2015-07-20T19:15:07Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > But it IS minutiae. The lesson is to learn how to decribe making a sandwich. Part of that process is to know what it is. Some, regardless of culture, race, gender or religion, may not know. It then becomes PART of that lesson to learn it. It’s not racist. It’s not bigotry. It’s a part of the lesson. Simply saying someone is a bigot, because a child with a peanut allergy doesn’t know what a PB&J sandwich is, doesn’t make it so. Where did I or that principal make the charge of bigotry over the PB&J example? Answer, we didn’t. Jennifer Anderson, the reporter who wrote the [three year old] article calls it “the subtle language of racism”, but that’s _her_ hook for the story, not Principal Gutierrez’ complaint. She nor I characterized it as bigotry or racism. Because it’s not about bigotry, it’s about an equitable learning environment, which cannot be established or maintained if the lessons and examples used in teaching are all built around a ‘majority’ culture that is not shared within the increasingly diverse student population. Consider a teacher who only uses sports examples in her lessons, and insists that those who don’t know what a “double play” or a “zone defense” is must learn about them in order to complete her physics word problems. Would you say she is being fair to her students? They’re all getting the same lessons, some just get to learn even more new stuff, right? The whining about political correctness in reaction to pretty basic educational concerns seems to be all about white defensiveness. So, yeah, bigotry’s involved here certainly, but it’s reactive bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/98 "2015-07-20T19:18:02Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Where did I or that principal make the charge of bigotry over the PB&J example? The OP did. Have a read. > [@xenophon41](#): > > The whining about political correctness in reaction to pretty basic educational concerns seems to be all about white defensiveness. So, yeah, bigotry’s involved here certainly, but it’s reactive bigotry. Gosh, this would also seem to be a charge of bigotry. So, odd you would make that first statement. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/99 "2015-07-20T19:19:45Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > If there is a thing as _Sukuk_, why the need for city approval? This is a good question. The article was surprisingly sparse on details. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671/100 "2015-07-20T19:20:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This is a good question. The article was surprisingly sparse on details. As are all the other articles on this subject that I’ve read. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-you-whine-about-political-correctness-youre-a-bigot/725671.md?page=6)