# If your baby is crying...DO SOMETHING!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034 "2007-06-22T17:57:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/341 "2007-07-19T02:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] 1. It may only take once or twice for your kid. That sort of stern discipline never worked for mine. We took away candy, toys, friends, tv. Doesn’t do much. Distractions don’t work once she gets going. Hairy eyeball, nope doesn’t work. What worked was to let her work it out, then talk her down once she was ready to be talked down. But she needed to be ready. Until she’d wound down enough to be as rational as a little kid could be, nothing worked, she didn’t hear you. [/quote] But again, hearing you post here (or seeing it rather… :)), you don’t sound like the type of parent that would let a child have a 45 minute tantrum in a public place. And I think you said that your daughter had medical issues including possible migraines (as a migraine sufferer myself, I can understand her pain, and the likelihood of a young child not understanding or being able to express that). Again, THAT is different from a parent that just simply doesn’t care. > [@](#): > > 1. They kick. As uncomfortable as screaming is, getting kicked in the head by someone else’s kid is, IMO, worse. I’ll risk screaming over my kid kicking someone. So we never bodily removed her from crowds because it wasn’t safe for her or for people around her. Fortunately, she only had a tantrum once in a crowd like that - and it was mercifully short. There is a method that I had to use on my son when he had tantrums, where you basically “bundle” them. They can’t kick when they can’t get their legs loose, and a loud cheerful (as cheerful as one can be under the circumstances) “Coming THROUGH, monster tantrum! Coming Through!!!” will work wonders to getting folks out of the way. > [@](#): > > My daughter is someone we’ve thought was a little difficult. Describing her behavior to her pediatrician we were assured she was “a challenging child, but well within the range of normal and would outgrow it.” And when she went into kindergarten we talked to her kindergarten teacher about it. And we were told that out of her class of 16 kids - five of them tantrummed regularly (and my daughter was not one of the five) and that this was normal - the school didn’t think it unusual unless there were other behaviors or indications until THIRD grade and there were no indications we should take our daughter in to a child psychologist. (We did have her pulled in first grade from some of her peers that really had poor behavior). She is much better at seven, NEVER has public tantrums anymore and now does the teenager “go to her room and pout” thing rather than the kicking and screaming that would still occasionally happen two years ago. I have to admit, I’m surprised by that, but don’t disbelieve it. But again, a kindergarten class IS an appropriate (perhaps key) place for a kid TO misbehave. First off, it’s an environment strictly for children. Second, professionals are there to guide kids when they do misbehave, and third, peer pressure works wonders, even at a young age. A person, like the one in the OP, or the lady I mentioned earlier who was at the bowling alley, who coldbloodedly simply allow their infant to cry because THEY want to play pool, or shop for non-essentials, or read are not behaving like considerate fellow citizens, or very good parents. Again, no one is saying that normal behaviour of kids (Yes, including the occasional meltdown) is some sort of reason to ban them from all society, or that it’s somehow new or what makes them horrible creatures or something. We’re saying that too many folks can’t or won’t figure out the difference between appropriate and inappropriate times and venues for kids, and how to parent should they find themselves in a situation where the child needs to be removed due to bad behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/342 "2007-07-19T02:41:20Z")
[QUOTE=overlyverbose] …snip…It’s unfortunate, but a lot of small children learn how to behave in public by misbehaving in public and having resultant consequences.. [/QUOTE] Excellent point! And this, in a nutshell, is what I’ve been saying (though not as clearly and succinctly as you just did. Mommy takes Darling Angel out in public. Darling Angel starts being a brat because she’s tired, low blood sugar, whatever. Mommy doesn’t want to stop shopping, or browsing the bookstore or whatever it is that she’s doing that’s so much more important than using the moment to be a parent and start teaching Darling Angel “How to Behave in Public” (\*\*Note I say start, we all know this isn’t a one time only deal). Mommy bribes Darling Angel with candy, or a toy. DINGDINGDING…Welcome to the Dark Side mommy, you’ve just taught Darling Angel how to manipulate you. Trouble is, Darling Angel is just going to keep on upping the ante to get what she wants. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/343 "2007-07-19T03:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] Wow, that’s wrong in so many ways that I don’t know where to begin. So I’ll start off by asking what rights and expectations of accommodation you think babies or children have. [/QUOTE] Children have any number of basic legal rights in accordance with the laws of any civilized society, and are generally accorded the most fundamental rights of human beings by all sane people. Certainly my country extends many basic rights to children. They have the right to live; they have the right to due process in criminal law; they have the right not to be discriminated against in accordance with race, religion, and a number of other classifications; they have the right to public educations, which must be offered in certain languages, depending where you are; so on and so forth. They also have rights that, as you point out, are generally exercised by their parents (e.g. the right to enter and exit the country, if they are citizens) but which nonetheless are, legally, applicable to the children, not just their parents. They are protected by criminal and civil laws beyond number in a manner consistent with other human beings. I would imagine most if not all of this is true of all organized states. > [@](#): > > Then I’ll say that as far as I know, babies can’t assert any rights for themselves except in very rare circumstances. Rights are not merely those that are asserted; for instance, the right to live is a fundamental right which can’t be “asserted,” unless you mean breathing. > [@](#): > > In most cases, an adult is required to assert the rights for babies and children. In that sense, the rights that the adults have in regards to dogs, parrots and portable stereos also apply. Simply absurd. Animals and objects do not have any legal rights whatsoever. Human beings do. Tell you what; if you don’t believe me, go out and buy a dog and put it in a cage. Then go buy a child and put it in a cage. Invite the neighbours over, and when the police come, tell me which act you’re arrested for. That you will be arrested for kidnapping and forcible confinement and any number of other offenses is simply a reflection of the legal and social understanding that children, which are human beings, are entitled to basic rights, while dogs are not. I can shoot my own dog if I feel like it. There’s no crime against it, providing I don’t make it suffer unreasonably, and even the law agaisnt animal cruelty is only statutory, and could be rescinded tomorrow without any Constitutional objection. I will suffer no penalty if I kill my own dog. If I kill your dog the penalties will, likely, be entirely civil in nature, unless in so doing I violate other laws (e.,g. discharging a firearm where it is illegal to do so.) What happens if I shoot my kid? Shoot your kid? Straight to prison, and that’s based on the fact that children deserve to live. They have a right to their lives. Animals don’t, or else eating steak would be a crime. > [@](#): > > The only example I can think of where humans might have more rights than animals is in the case of for instance, heating to an apartment or dwelling. You’re kidding, right? You can’t think of ANY OTHER INSTANCE where humans have more rights than animals? You’ve seen horses vote, cats win the right to equal protection under the law, and oxen win their freedom from slavery? > [@](#): > > As for your statement about how society “should” be, I can only know what society is and has been. As far as how it has been, there have been some classes of people for whom children and babies have had no rights. For instance, if someone purchased a slave before the civil war, that person could kill that slave out of overwork and not be responsible to the child nor his/her parents. Well, yes, there have been criminal, uncivilized countries run by murderers. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/344 "2007-07-19T06:44:09Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Without getting sidetracked into completely tangential discussions of China, Aww, c’mon. . . why is everyone picking on my China argument? I kinda liked it. And I still think it’s valid, just not in the exact way that I wrote it. So let me backpedal from my backpedal. While I agreed that the sentence should not have included the part about comparing the functions of societies as being the same, I still think it makes the argument that there are some societies that don’t value having more children. For that reason, I disagree with **Malthus** ’ argument that having children should carry privileges inherently. One of his arguments was that children provide for the parents’ social security, but in a country of scarcity, more children could ensure the parents’ death sooner through starvation. And I also like my China argument because it shows how people only think of their own view and perceptions of things. It reminds me of RO counter-arguments in that way. People always think that everyone should be outraged over the same stuff. But people in different cultures could very well consider that absurd. Your argument of different societies within societies, while very good, didn’t show the dramatic differences between societies or different cultures I was trying to aim for. Having said that, thanks for clarifying my argument. [QUOTE=Frylock] My point was that your post had undermined the trust that readers had had that you were arguing in good faith. The post made it appear you did not honestly understand where the fallacies in your interlocutors’ arguments lay, and that instead of either admitting this or doing the work to rectify your lack of understanding, rather you had decided to hide behind authoritative sounding phrases which you clearly did not actually understand. It appeared you hoped to intimidate your opponent into submission by any means, truthful or not. This is bad form. [/quote] Wow, so much to say about this. Before I start, I want to thank you for writing out such a lengthy post. It looks like you put some effort into it. . . either that or you type really fast. First, regarding my “bad form.” Is it better form to come into a thread and point out something that you think is wrong without explaining it and then point out the other person has lost all credibility and has lost some imaginary “debate”? Second, you’re attributing motivations to me that I simply don’t have. I’m not sure how I would “intimidate my opponent into submission” in a thread on a message board. In my post to **fessie** that you’re discussing, I clearly had said that I didn’t think that she’d be interested in the discussion about what I was calling fallacies but wanted to post it in case anyone else was interested. So I clearly wasn’t trying to “intimidate” the person I was responding to. My other “opponents” would be anyone else who might happen to read the thread and disagree which includes you. Since I know you’re a philosophy student, why would I try to intimidate someone that I know has knowledge about the subject? Third, how can you know whether I was arguing in good faith? As far as I was concerned, I had an understanding of a concept and posted it. Whether my understanding was flawed is still up for grabs. I realize now (after you pointed it out) I might have used incorrect nomenclature, but that’s really a technicality as far as the argument is concerned, I think. And why should the readers in this thread place any more trust in my statements than they do with any other post. I even linked to my resources so they could see for themselves if they agreed with my conclusions. Fourth, in my first thread that I ventured into as a guest on The Dope, there was [someone that tried to use fallacies to negate my post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8032844&postcount=138). If it’s bad form to a member, surely it must be bad form towards a guest. And they weren’t even kind enough to link to their resources. But no mention was made of that, so I’m feeling doubtful that there really is such an agreed upon concept here. > [@Frylock](#): > > One should look at my claims, and my arguments for them (if any), and evaluate their validity. And the same goes for mine. > [@Frylock](#): > > Reductio ad Absurdum is a valid argument form. Its structure is as follows. Interesting discussion, but it doesn’t point out whether I used the concept as it applied to the post I was responding to. Here’s my abbreviated analysis: Premise: It’s a pretty simple fact that we have to make more human beings in order for the human race to continue, no? Conclusion: The point of having kids is to bring them into society. The point of having society is to welcome more kids. So my thought was she’s arguing not P (no more human being created), leading to the conclusion that then the point of society must be to have kids. and I got my thought from (which was linked in my text): [ > [@](#): > > ]([Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum))Reductio ad absurdum is also often used to describe an argument where a conclusion is derived in the belief that everyone (or at least those being argued against) will accept that it is false or absurd. However, this is a weak form of reductio, as the decision to reject the premise requires that the conclusion is accepted as being absurd. Although a formal contradiction is by definition absurd (unacceptable), a weak reductio ad absurdum argument can be rejected simply by accepting the purportedly absurd conclusion. Unfortunately, I did not carefully read the next sentence which points out: > [@](#): > > There is a fairly common misconception that reductio ad absurdum simply denotes “a silly argument” and is itself a formal fallacy. However, this is not correct; a properly constructed reductio constitutes a correct argument. When reductio ad absurdum is in error, it’s because of a fallacy worked into the example, somewhere, not the act of reduction itself. which is the point you’re trying to make. But just because it’s technically not called a fallacy, I’m not sure it negates the argument. > [@Frylock](#): > > Now onto a separate issue: Your misunderstanding of my position regarding children on airplanes. I said that I do not want parents to feel they should refrain from taking their children on airplanes, even if those parents think it entirely possible their children will throw a serious tantrum during the flight. I’ve been giving this some thought. I actually had lunch with a preschool teacher this afternoon and asked her about this. I’ve noted that it’s easy to tell which kids are going to likely throw tantrums. For one of my neighbors, I would be surprised if her kids threw an extended tantrum on an airplane unless there were extenuating circumstances. For another of my neighbors, I’d be surprised if her kids _didn’t_ throw a tantrum since they’re throwing tantrums in public places all the time. So parents have the ability to assess whether they’re kids are more likely to throw a tantrum or not. It’s these parents that should think about not bringing their children on planes. Having said that, that’s like whistling in the wind for the most part because those parents whose children are most prone to tantrums are least likely to be considerate about other people’s comfort. > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > The society as defined by a group of strangers on an airplane does have rules. Does this mean that each group of people on an airplane is a different “society”? Does it make a difference whether that society is made up of 80% business people on a commuter flight each morning between say, San Francisco and LA or whether that “society” is made up of people on a plane mostly going on a tour that starts on a Saturday afternoon? Should the expectations be different? Are the so-called “privileges” that others have talked about in this thread being applied the same way in these circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/345 "2007-07-19T12:22:11Z")
> [@Jolly Roger](#): > > I don’t think anyone’s rights are more important than mine just because they have kids. I know many will not agree with that, and thats fine. [QUOTE=fessie] I think it’s simply that kids’ needs, and therefore their rights, are vastly different from adults’. [/quote] Yes. They are subordinate to the rights and expectations of adults, in well-parented households. > [@](#): > > (Kids) _need_ to move, and they _need_ to make (some) noise, it’s just the way they are. They may feel the need to kick the back of a chair occupied by an adult in an adjoining seat, or to race around a restaurant annoying other patrons because their parents are obliviously gabbing on the cellphone. Such behavior is quickly curtailed by good parents. Similarly, any child may begin screeching loudly for no good reason, but with good parenting that’s stopped quickly, or if it can’t be stopped one or more parents will leave with the child, even if it means their night out is curtailed. > [@](#): > > It’s like parking for the disabled - they don’t have a greater “right” to shop, but their needs are different and should be honored. The antics of badly brought up kids are not protected under law. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/346 "2007-07-19T12:55:20Z")
I’d bet that some of our differing opinions and experiences on this are based on where and how we happen to live. When we lived in Madison, Wisconsin (yay cheeseheads!), we were childless and could afford (not really, but we did it anyway) to go to nice restaurants. So I **have** actually seen kids running around and getting in the way. I saw a restaurant owner tell one family, very clearly, that they HAD to control their child, period. This was 20 years ago, so don’t take it as a “kids these days” story. People in (very liberal) Madison expected more accommodations for their children, at least to my (childless) eyes. They’d often interrupt me when I was out painting, expecting me to give their kids some kind of narrative on being an artist – I’d think, fuck you, I’m not part of your field trip. We have children now, so we don’t go anywhere that kids aren’t (generally) welcome. And we live in a conservative state. So now I’m seeing the other side of the coin - kids getting smacked at the library Storyhour because they can’t sit still, moms who order their toddlers not to jump and splash in the public pool. _It’s the pool, for cryin out loud! That’s where they’re supposed to splash_! I see parents going way too far in controlling their children. And I see a lot of intolerant adults. My kids got the total stink-eye at Barnes & Noble, just for speaking above a library whisper. I thought the other patrons were really obnoxious for that. My children had taken their little cookies on the nice plates and sat at the table all on their own, being Big Kids. They weren’t running and screaming, just talking in their enthusiastic preschooler voices. I even know a mom who was asked to leave a grocery store because her kids were making a little racket (and not ear-piercing screams, people; somebody was crying, IIRC). Sure, it’s great to do that “leave the store” thing when they misbehave - unless you’re out of food. How was she supposed to feed her family? Shit, that same grocery store chain used to demand that I give up the 2-seat cutesy cart at the checkout, exchanging it for a normal one-seated cart before I left the store. It was very difficult to navigate their parking lot while pushing one kid in the cart and balancing the other on my hip. You try it sometime. I don’t fly anymore (can’t afford it), but the moms I know of who have, have spent a lot of time and energy trying to prepare in advance, trying to make sure that their children aren’t a nuisance to others. If you see someone on a plane who doesn’t appear to give a whit that their kid’s being annoying, it could be that they are just thoroughly self-centered – but it could also be that they are flying because of an emergency, an illness or death, and just can’t cope anymore. With anything. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/347 "2007-07-19T13:15:49Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] Sure, it’s great to do that “leave the store” thing when they misbehave - unless you’re out of food. How was she supposed to feed her family? [/quote] Come back later when kids are under control. Inconvenience to parent - yes. Threat of starvation? Be real. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/348 "2007-07-19T13:30:48Z")
Have you ever run out of milk? Gimme a fucking break, Jack – you cannot tell me that a Mom’s need to get some milk for her small child doesn’t trump someone else’s need for peace and quiet? How else is the kid gonna quiet down, if you can’t give him/her some milk? I’m trying to work with you here, I agree that kids aren’t a magic wedge that entitle a parent to do whatever the fuck they want. Me, personally, I probably OVER parent my kids. But a frazzled mom in a grocery store, trying to feed her family, SHE deserves a break. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/349 "2007-07-19T14:02:32Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] I even know a mom who was asked to leave a grocery store because her kids were making a little racket (and not ear-piercing screams, people; somebody was crying, IIRC). Sure, it’s great to do that “leave the store” thing when they misbehave - unless you’re out of food. How was she supposed to feed her family? [/QUOTE] I’m having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around that one, Fessie. Unless the store manager was the Grinch or something the kids must have been making more than a little racket. But i wasn’t there…so lets say you’re right, it was only a “little racket”. Hey, the store manager went too far then. But there had to more to it than that unless the manager was just a hateful monster. I also have to agree with Jack **if** the kids were making such a disturbance that they were asked to leave. They’re not going to starve and the store wasn’t going to magically disappear before the mom could come back later. Yeah, it sucks to have to take your kid outside and settle them down instead of getting a carton of milk and some baloney, but its not like they were tarred and feathered. > [@](#): > > Shit, that same grocery store chain used to demand that I give up the 2-seat cutesy cart at the checkout, exchanging it for a normal one-seated cart before I left the store. It was very difficult to navigate their parking lot while pushing one kid in the cart and balancing the other on my hip. You try it sometime. Do you mean one of those carts that look like a car or something for kids to sit in? Sounds like you should go to another store. They don’t seem very helpful or friendly, and I would think a grocery store would kind of cater to children and parents. > [@](#): > > If you see someone on a plane who doesn’t appear to give a whit that their kid’s being annoying, it could be that they are just thoroughly self-centered – but it could also be that they are flying because of an emergency, an illness or death, and just can’t cope anymore. With anything. Or most likely they could just be assholes. If I’m on a plane and your kid is going bananas I don’t particularly care about why the parents can’t cope. I’m not going to just assume they have some family emergency. Why would I? And why would that absolve them from the responsibility of dealing with their kid? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/350 "2007-07-19T14:04:04Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] I think it’s simply that kids’ needs, and therefore their rights, are vastly different from adults’. They need to move, and they need to make (some) noise, it’s just the way they are. It’s like parking for the disabled - they don’t have a greater “right” to shop, but their needs are different and should be honored. [/quote] > [@fessie](#): > > Me, personally, I probably OVER parent my kids. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/351 "2007-07-19T14:20:17Z")
Okay - I can’t link to our conversation b/c it’s a private forum – the hilarious thing is, **I** was the one who started the thread to complain because I’d seen a mom ignoring her 2-month-old baby’s cries at the grocery store! Anyway, this is my friend’s reply. She’s got 4 kids. When she wrote this, the oldest boy was 3+, the twins were just shy of 2 (also boys), and she had an infant girl: > [@my very overworked mom friend](#): > > Yikes, lol. This lady was me two months ago!!! Courtney had TERRIBLE colic, and would cry regardless of what I did. There were days that I HAD to get to the grocery store to buy essentials (diapers, tampons, toilet paper, stuff that couldn’t wait until Mike got home from work). I had the twins in one of those car contraptions that attaches to the front of the cart, and Court in her carseat SCREAMING at the top of her lungs. I tried to get in and out of their as fast as possible. The looks I was getting from everyone were terrible. A woman actually approached me and asked me the last time I had fed my child, and maybe I could open up a can of formula and make her a bottle to stop her crying. I was in shock! Um, besides the fact that I am breast feeding, how dare a stranger insinuate I was starving my infant?! As I was standing in the baby aisle looking at diapers, a manager approached and told me customers were complaining, and asked if I could come back and finish my shopping at a later date!!! What?! I said, “no I can’t, I will finish up and leave. but I can certainly tell you, you will NEVER see me in this store again!” I just thought that was soooooo rude! I was crying too by the time I left the grocery store! Maybe this woman was having a similar day? The replies varied, depending on whether or not the author had had a colicky baby (seriously, there really ARE some kids who can’t be consoled). But here’s what it’s like from a mom’s POV: > [@another mom](#): > > Sometimes you can’t do anything no matter how hard you try. Sometimes the incessant crying is too much and you just go out and do something, anything to soften the madness you are feeling from going crazy. I personally don’t like taking my own kids out when they are like this but for some people they need to just get out or get crazy and better they have a crying baby on them then locked in the car alone or in the home alone. I am sure this can push anyone with a lick of PPD or baby blues to their limits. > > I do believe that some kids just need to cry. If you do whatever you can to try to soothe them, then you did your job. It’s not wrong to let them cry. It’s a parental choice and matter of perspective. I posted that because I tried to argue a long time ago that the lack of tolerance for children on the part of strangers contributes to child abuse (and I was widely mocked for it). That’s basically what my friend is saying, too. Expecting mothers to stay at home all the time with their inconvenient, noisy, occasionally obnoxious kids (babies on up) is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. It’s a prescription for madness. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/352 "2007-07-19T14:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **fessie** said: > Gimme a fucking break, Jack – you cannot tell me that a Mom’s need to get some milk for her small child doesn’t trump someone else’s need for peace and quiet? How else is the kid gonna quiet down, if you can’t give him/her some milk? Because someone who is supposedly responsible enough to actually raise kids isn’t responsible enough to plan ahead and buy more milk when she sees that the container in the fridge is running low? If you manage to run out of food to the point that your kids will starve if you don’t shop **right this second** , then maybe your kids would be better off being taken care of by _someone else._ > [@](#): > > **fessie** quoting someone else: > There were days that I HAD to get to the grocery store to buy essentials (diapers, tampons, toilet paper, stuff that couldn’t wait until Mike got home from work). Why didn’t Mike go and get the diapers and the tampons and toilet paper, oh I don’t know, **before** they ran completely out of everything? It’s really not that difficult to make sure that on your routine grocery trips you pick up stuff like that so that you never do run completely out. You take inventory. ‘I have 2 rolls of TP. That will not last until next week’s shopping trip, so I’d better get some today.’ Someone else’s failure to plan ahead does not cause me to burn sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/353 "2007-07-19T14:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] :dubious: [/QUOTE] What the fuck is that? Just because I have compassion for women who are struggling to raise their kids doesn’t mean I overindulge mine. You seriously cannot be a parent. Tell me you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/354 "2007-07-19T14:23:51Z")
Yes, **catsix**. Good parents, normal people, run out of things and HAVE to go to the store. Man, the ignorance around here today is shocking. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/355 "2007-07-19T14:32:41Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] The antics of badly brought up kids are not protected under law. [/QUOTE] Are you contending that I should only show consideration for someone if I am legally required to do so? This thread has been incredibly educational. Ultimately, kids have nothing to do with it - either you’re willing to give another person a break when they’re having a hard time (for whatever reason), or you’re not. I’d never realized that there are quite so many people walking around whose first reaction, upon seeing someone who is struggling for whatever reason, is to say _fuck you, lady, you’re an inconvenience._ Depressing. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/356 "2007-07-19T14:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Because someone who is supposedly responsible enough to actually raise kids isn’t responsible enough to plan ahead and buy more milk when she sees that the container in the fridge is running low? If you manage to run out of food to the point that your kids will starve if you don’t shop **right this second** , then maybe your kids would be better off being taken care of by _someone else._ Why didn’t Mike go and get the diapers and the tampons and toilet paper, oh I don’t know, **before** they ran completely out of everything? It’s really not that difficult to make sure that on your routine grocery trips you pick up stuff like that so that you never do run completely out. You take inventory. ‘I have 2 rolls of TP. That will not last until next week’s shopping trip, so I’d better get some today.’ Someone else’s failure to plan ahead does not cause me to burn sympathy. [/QUOTE] You are not a good person, and I am sorry for anyone who meets you. I realize there are much more creative insults I could try to construct, but why bother? ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/357 "2007-07-19T14:45:35Z")
**Catsix** , you really don’t have any idea what it’s like to have a house full of small children, or a baby. It’s simply not the same as single living. “Take inventory?” You must be kidding. There is no “taking inventory”. When my twins were babies, I was lucky to get a sandwich for myself. I lost 80 lbs (all of my pregnancy weight, plus another 20) within a month, because I rarely had time to eat anything. At all. You start off thinking “I need a glass of water, I’m thirsty”, but before you can get to the kitchen one kid needs a clean diaper, the other one is hungry, where is a clean bottle, now the first one wants a toy, no that toy, no it’s THAT toy, the second one now has a dirty diaper…and there was something you wanted. Was it water? It’s MUCH, MUCH easier for me now that mine are 3.5 years old. The first two years were constant chaos. Unending chaos. Dizzying chaos. Last summer was Hell because they’d be fine one minute, perfectly civilized, and insane the next. Like the time I went to empty the vacuum cleaner canister and they found the filter and shook dirt all over the house. Or the time I absolutely HAD to take a shower while they were awake. So I had them on the couch, watching _Teletubbies_, perfectly content. Dash in the shower, lather, rinse (gave up on repeat long ago), jump back out. Five minutes, tops. Where are the twins? One kid’s watching _Corky Romano_, and the other one is sitting on the kitchen table and has peeled all of the bananas in the house. I think that if you see a woman with small children in public, and she’s NOT screaming at them, and they’re NOT acting like wild banshees, then you are witnessing the result of a fuck of a lot of hard work. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/358 "2007-07-19T16:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Because someone who is supposedly responsible enough to actually raise kids isn’t responsible enough to plan ahead and buy more milk when she sees that the container in the fridge is running low? If you manage to run out of food to the point that your kids will starve if you don’t shop **right this second** , then maybe your kids would be better off being taken care of by _someone else._ Why didn’t Mike go and get the diapers and the tampons and toilet paper, oh I don’t know, **before** they ran completely out of everything? It’s really not that difficult to make sure that on your routine grocery trips you pick up stuff like that so that you never do run completely out. You take inventory. ‘I have 2 rolls of TP. That will not last until next week’s shopping trip, so I’d better get some today.’ Someone else’s failure to plan ahead does not cause me to burn sympathy. [/QUOTE] Do you never make mistakes and run out of certain items in your fridge that you use a lot? If so, I’m extremely jealous, because it happens all the time to me no matter how organized I am. Even people who make lists (like me - I’m anal enough I group everything by location in the supermarket so I can get in and out faster and minimize forgetting things) make mistakes or forget things. Also, lots of parents (myself included) make misjudgments because kids are unpredictable. Some weeks my son sucks down more than a gallon of milk, so I have to make another trip to go out and get some. But most weeks my son drinks about 3/4 of a gallon. If I know he’s already in a crappy mood, I’ll probably try to wait, but if he’s sick and needs the fluids and will only drink milk and my husband’s not available to do it, hell yeah I’m taking him out to get him some milk. Big deal - so you don’t have any sympathy for parents. There are some parents I have no sympathy for, too. Still, I understand that there are circumstances in which parents might have to take a squalling kid to the supermarket or another public place. I’ve had to do it before, too, when my kid had tonsilitis and refused to drink anything for 24 hours. The doctor told me to get some pedialyte. I was the only parent available to do so and I happened to have the kid with me. It wasn’t a situation where I could just sit and wait for my husband to do it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/359 "2007-07-19T16:40:36Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] What the fuck is that? Just because I have compassion for women who are struggling to raise their kids doesn’t mean I overindulge mine. [/QUOTE] **fessie** , you need to bore a hole in yourself and let the sap out. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > Are you contending that I should only show consideration for someone if I am legally required to do so? I suggest you try reading for context. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034/360 "2007-07-19T16:49:17Z")
I just saw this article and had to laugh; I guess this topic is newsworthy. It’s an article in Newsweek online that popped up on MSN today and it’s called, [_Stop Setting Alarms on My Biological Clock If I’m ever going to fulfill my dream of becoming a mother, I’m going to need some better role models._](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19762056/site/newsweek/) She talks about how other mothers have turned her off the idea of being a mom for some of the reasons below. [ > [@](#): > > ]([http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19762056/site/newsweek/page/2/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19762056/site/newsweek/page/2/))Now let’s talk a bit about manners, as in please teach your children some. The world has rules, and kids should learn them. And being well mannered does not infringe on their individuality and freedom. > > I crouched to meet the eye line of an acquaintance’s 4-year-old to greet her, and in response, she punched me in the face so hard my mouth bled. What was more baffling was the mother’s reaction: nothing to the child, but to me she said very sternly: “You really shouldn’t talk down to kids.” > > I also shouldn’t be punched in the face by kids whose parents don’t know how to set basic boundaries. Experiences like this don’t exactly encourage me to hurry up and get pregnant. and [ > [@](#): > > ]([http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19762056/site/newsweek/page/2/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19762056/site/newsweek/page/2/))Finally, don’t make your kid an extension of your own narcissism. > > No one could possibly love your kids as much as you do, so stop inflicting them on others. Don’t bring your kid to adult parties when you’re not sure if it’s kid-friendly. If they didn’t invite your kid, they don’t want your kid there. If you don’t want to get a babysitter, stay home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-your-baby-is-crying-do-something/409034.md?page=19)