If your "group wnats to ban smoking, make sure you have your shit together. (local)

[aurelian]

And now I turn to the joy that is simply, duffer <jazz hands>

My right to smoke doesn’t trump your right to breath. And you’re following a formula of hysteria by saying so. Entering a bar that allows smoking doesn’t mean you can’t breath. True, by choosing to enter the bar you’re not breathing the cleanest air available, but with all the talk of air pollution being in a smoke-free environment may not be the best bet either.

But it is a question of degree, and I live in friggin’ Wisconsin, not Mexico City. It’s the difference between a single Oreo cookie and an entire three-layer chocolate cake. Whatever air pollution exists in Madison isn’t enough/ of the sort/ that bothers my asthma. Not a legitimate comparison in my case. Next?

And no, I’m not overly concerned with your employment situation, and neither is your employer in all likelihood. I cannot comprehend a city where you can’t find a flex-time job that doesn’t allow smoking. Hospitals, malls, bookstores, retail outlets, non-smoking restaurants or bars, work-study, etc etc etc.

Ya know, maybe I’m cynical, but I’ve rather got the sense you’re not overly concerned with much about anyone, but thanks for giving it to me in writing. You’re right; the state of Wisconsin isn’t concerned about my employment. I’m one of the 70000 state workers who hasn’t had a current contract in 2 years. The head of the committee that negotiates the contracts, John Gard, swore revenge on the Teaching Assistants Union for a previous contract snafu back in '03 (unfortunately, I’m not kidding.)
You can’t comprehend a city like that? You can’t comprehend a city of 200,000 with a potential employee pool of 50,000 students? It’s not easy finding part-time work in Madison because there are so many applicants. More demand than supply.

Don’t tell me a city should enforce the banning of a legal product because you don’t have the gumption to tell your boss you can’t serve customers in the smoking section. If it’s so deadly you’d quit and not look back. The world doesn’t revolve around you. THERE ARE CHOICES FOR YOU!

Wow, it’d be funny if you actually read my posts. But then I wouldn’t get the joy of repeating myself, over and over…
It ain’t about gumption, idiot. I got placed in the section and made the most money I had made in my time there (I’ve been working there since January). Yet again, I don’t think the world revolves around me (have you noticed I’ve said this in EVERY post I’ve made yet?). Of course there’s a choice. I chose making a lot of money in one night over my health. While nowhere near the worst, it sucks to have to choose between one’s job and one’s health.

And a PhD candidate in Spanish looking for an office job? I really want to make a dig on that but I guess I don’t know what you mean by it.

Okay, you’re officially an asshole. It’s not basket-weaving. I teach Spanish to students; perhaps you’ve heard of it…? It’s a language that’s becoming more and more important in the US. As a TA, I actually teach the course; since there are 2000+ students/ semester that go through Spanish, the first four semesters are taught exclusively by TA’s, the fifth by a lecturer.
I was looking for an ‘office job’, a part-time job, because thanks to the state’s budget cuts, classes have been slashed at the university; Letters and Science lost about 250 classes this year. That means that students can’t get the classes they need, and that I only get one section instead of two (and if I were teaching any other language than Spanish, I wouldn’t even get that), meaning my income just got halved. So, I need another job. Since there are too many applicants, it’s near impossible to find a job without direct experience (hence the office comment). I started looking for a job I have back in September (I had a sense I wouldn’t get two classes), and found the one I have in late December. I’m lucky that they are a large enough restaurant to be flexible about experience; for all the other places I applied at, my waitress work in undergraduate was irrelevant.

And as for your swipe about staying on target (as you just finish going off on a tangent so as to throw in another ‘gah aurelian, why are you so dumb?’ comment, I say this: You have yet to answer my question, you have ignored/ misinterpreted what I have said.

[duffer]

@aurelian

So why am I working in the bar? Because I made really good money those two nights, and I need it badly enough to risk an asthma attack. If you want to tell me that’s a dumb, hypocritical decision, fine…I won’t argue with you. But I need the money.

Hey, I have no thoughts of you being “dumb” for sticking with a job that you feel provides a good income. It’s how business works in a capitalist society. If you feel that a different situation would be better or healthier or more profitable, I would urge you to persue those leads. I understand that those with asthma can suffer attacks if exposed to too much tobacco smoke.* Among other enviromental hazards such as how much pollen is released from flowers in your area. It’s a real concern for you, but only one of many factors. Speaking of flowers?

Say a friend of mine is allergic to rose petals. I call a florist and order a dozen roses to be delivered without knowing she’s allergic. Am I to blame, the delivery man, the store owner? I’d argue till the sun never rises that none of us are to blame, as we didn’t know. But your argument, following your logic, says the florist shouldn’t stock roses regardless of whether or not you ever even enter the store.

[MagicEyes]

@Ellis Dee

Not even Cecil believes the second hand smoke “studies”.

That’s not quite what he said. He said it hasn’t been proven yet (in an article that was written over four years ago). There’s a lot of really good evidence that secondhand smoke causes heart disease (it raises your blood pressure and heart rate, stiffens your blood vessels, makes it more difficult for your body to deliver and utilize oxygen, and raises your cholesterol). The CDC recommends that anyone who has heart disease or risk factors for heart disease should not be exposed to secondhand smoke, even for short periods of time. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg–it also causes more frequent respiratory infections, asthma, ear infections in children, low birth weight, SIDS, and more.

Some of the older studies that show that SHS causes heart disease are not well grounded, but there are a lot of recent studies that use cotinine measurements that show how much people really have been exposed to secondhand smoke.

Restaurants are subject to other health regulations. We have laws that say that you have to wear shoes in a restaurant and get a new plate when you go to the buffet. People are protected from other carcinogens and toxins in their workplaces. Why should smoking be any different? Oh, yeah–it’s all about politics. And it’s just because we’ve accepted for so long that secondhand smoke is a normal part of life. But that’s changing–people are starting to realize that it’s not a good thing, and that’s why more non-smoking ordinances are being passed. It’s not about taking away personal choice, it’s about protecting people from a substance that we know is carcinogenic and toxic.

Smoking is your choice, but not smoking is my choice. Smoke gives me a headache and makes me feel like crap. I don’t like going out to a bar and coming home smelling like smoke, so I have to take a shower before I go to bed.

I’m lucky that I have choices–I live in a town that has smoke-free restaurants, I work in a smoke-free place. Other people don’t have those choices. It’s not always that easy to find a job that doesn’t allow smoking.

Only 25% of Americans smoke. Why should they get to make the rules?

[duffer]

@aurelian

But it is a question of degree,

Well, no, actually it isn’t a question of degree. There are no fucking degrees to this. You’re a PhD candidate? I don’t give a whit what discipline you’re studying, you should be able able to see this in a clinical, cold, non-predjudiced way. In other words, take your personal feelings out of it and see it from the larger context of affecting those outside your social circle. Oh, and for a bonus, why are you complaining about not working enough when you’re looking for work in a city where your profession, as you stated, has 1 candidate per 4 citizens. PhD’s must be easier to get than I thought.

This is about people that stake their life savings (often mortgaging them) to open a business, risking financial ruin for their families if the establishment goes bust, working their asses off to make it a success, and trying to hire workers that won’t rob them blind.

The same people that pay the fees for cigartette licenses and taxes, liquor licenses and taxes, insurance, wages, matching SS and Medicare taxes, property tax, ad nauseum.

What part of the country do you live in that is so economically sound that you can dismiss a large part of an industry so vital to any city’s income? And do you know of anyone in town selling their house?

[duffer]

@MagicEyes

Smoking is your choice, but not smoking is my choice. Smoke gives me a headache and makes me feel like crap. I don’t like going out to a bar and coming home smelling like smoke, so I have to take a shower before I go to bed.

I’m lucky that I have choices–I live in a town that has smoke-free restaurants, I work in a smoke-free place. Other people don’t have those choices. It’s not always that easy to find a job that doesn’t allow smoking.

Only 25% of Americans smoke. Why should they get to make the rules?

OK, I’ll take this one by paragraph.

1. Don’t go to the fucking bar! If the smell is so bad, and you choose to go there anyway, it says something about you. Why are you going there? :dubious:

2. Who doesn’t have these choices?!? It’s nice to say “Well I’m doing good, but the neighbor isn’t”. It has fuck-all to do with real life in the workings of the other 350 million people in the country. I challenge anyone in the US to tell me the area they’re in, and if I can’t find a job opening in a non-smoking environment that has flexible hours, I’ll pay not only your, but 2 friends’ SDMB subscription dues.

3. Well, I guess 1 out of every 4 people you see have an invalid claim to use a legal product.

Now I’m really curious about what state you live in. I wonder if they collect taxes on the tobacco. (If they do, I’ll bet my left kidney they say the majority goes toward some program for children.)
New rant coming soon. Those quitting smoking and why they hate children.

[aurelian]

Oh, and for a bonus, why are you complaining about not working enough when you’re looking for work in a city where your profession, as you stated, has 1 candidate per 4 citizens. PhD’s must be easier to get than I thought.

:smack: There are about 40000 undergraduates that attend UW-Madison. There are 3000 TA’s that teach and take classes at UW-Madison. There are about 60 TA’s in the Spanish department.

[MagicEyes]

@duffer

OK, I’ll take this one by paragraph.

1. Don’t go to the fucking bar! If the smell is so bad, and you choose to go there anyway, it says something about you. Why are you going there?

I don’t. But I want to go out and have fun, too. There aren’t really a lot of bars around here that are smoke-free. So I have to choose between seeing a band I really want to see or breathing clean air. That sucks.

@duffer

2. Who doesn’t have these choices?!? It’s nice to say “Well I’m doing good, but the neighbor isn’t”. It has fuck-all to do with real life in the workings of the other 350 million people in the country. I challenge anyone in the US to tell me the area they’re in, and if I can’t find a job opening in a non-smoking environment that has flexible hours, I’ll pay not only your, but 2 friends’ SDMB subscription dues.

Just because the jobs are out there doesn’t mean anyone can get them. Jobs are competitive, and most people don’t end up in the jobs they really want.

How about a woman who’s seven months pregnant, working in the smoking section at a restaurant, the managers won’t even put her in the non-smoking section, and she can’t just quit the job because she needs the money. Yes, this is a real person.

@duffer

3. Well, I guess 1 out of every 4 people you see have an invalid claim to use a legal product.

Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean you can use it wherever and whenever you want. It’s legal to have sex, but it’s illegal to do it in public places. What you do in private is your own business, but when you do it in public, it affects other people.

[MagicEyes]

@duffer

Now I’m really curious about what state you live in. I wonder if they collect taxes on the tobacco. (If they do, I’ll bet my left kidney they say the majority goes toward some program for children.

It’s in my location–North Carolina, very much a tobacco state. We have one of the lowest taxes on cigarettes in the nation (5 cents per pack), but that’s going to be changing soon. I wish they’d raise it to $5 a pack.

[duffer]

@MagicEyes

What you do in private is your own business, but when you do it in public, it affects other people.

:DEEEEEEEP BREATH:
Did you happen to notice anywhere in this thread the mention of private ownership of establishments? And the right of the owner to allow or disallow that which is already legal in their place of business?

The idea of public sex would fly in at least 2 bars I know of. But your analogy falls apart quickly.

It may be illegal to have sex in your car (in a parking lot, tooling down the Interstate, at the McDonald’s Drive-Thru, stopped at a red light, cruising through a scenic area). Guess what you can do in all those cases? Yup. Smoke.
Of course, being an Evil Smoker[sup]TM[/sup] I’m not a member of the public in your world.

How does it feel knowing you’re so much more important than me?

[MagicEyes]

@duffer

Did you happen to notice anywhere in this thread the mention of private ownership of establishments? And the right of the owner to allow or disallow that which is already legal in their place of business?

Well, as I pointed out before, private establishments are subject to other laws to protect the public’s health. Restaurants have lots of sanitation laws–they’re not exempt from being inspected because they’re privately owned. Makes no difference, people are still being exposed to something that’s harmful to their health. Smoking is only different because of politics.

@duffer

It may be illegal to have sex in your car (in a parking lot, tooling down the Interstate, at the McDonald’s Drive-Thru, stopped at a red light, cruising through a scenic area). Guess what you can do in all those cases? Yup. Smoke.

That’s a different situation–it’s something that’s visible vs. something that travels through the air. I don’t care if I see you smoking, as long as I don’t have to breathe it. Smoking in your own home is a problem if it drifts into another house or apartment.

@duffer

Of course, being an Evil Smoker[sup]TM[/sup] I’m not a member of the public in your world.

How does it feel knowing you’re so much more important than me?

I don’t think smokers are evil (smelly, yes, but not evil). Smoking is your choice. You probably know how bad it is for your health, but it’s your choice to take the risk. Not smoking is my choice. Why should you get to decide that I should be subject to that risk?

I believe that secondhand smoke is toxic and carcinogenic (and I have lots of cites, if you want to see them). You’re the one who’s saying you’re more important than everyone else, because you think you should be able to smoke anywhere, regardless of how it affects other people.

[sweetfreak]

@TeaElle

This is a lovely platitude, but it isn’t reality, and you know it and accept it daily. We are a nation of laws which govern conduct in both public and private spaces.

Just because something is reality doesn’t make it right. Reality can be changed.
And yes, we are a nation of laws. Therein lies the problem. I would much rather live in a world where people do the right thing because they have some sense of integrity and honor, and not because they are afraid of breaking a law.

You can’t force morals and ethics upon people. They either want to do the right thing or they don’t.

So yes, I do know what the reality is. But I don’t accept it. Unfortunately, I can’t change other people. The only person I can change is myself, and perhaps be a good example for others.

Ya know, I am a smoker (obviously) and I respect the next person’s right not to smoke or be exposed to it. So I should have just as much right to open a smoking restaurant as that next person has to open a non-smoking one.

[TeaElle]

@sweetfreak

Ya know, I am a smoker (obviously) and I respect the next person’s right not to smoke or be exposed to it. So I should have just as much right to open a smoking restaurant as that next person has to open a non-smoking one.

Should you have a “right” to open a restaurant that isn’t inspected by health authorities?
Should you have a “right” to open a strip club which features fully nude 15 year old dancers?
Should you have a “right” to pay your employees $1 an hour so long as they’re willing (or more likely, desperate enough) to accept such a low wage?

Rights are tempered with responsibilities, and as the owner of a public business (we’ve already established the concept of a “private business” as a canard) you have a responsibility to do what is right for those who enter your establishment.

And as much as you don’t like the reality that we are governed by laws, it is reality because people have proven for as long as we have existed in societies, that they absolutely cannot be trusted to do what is right where others are concerned. People are inherently selfish and the needs and desires of others do not factor into their thinking most of the time. That’s why we have agreed upon rules which govern public behavior.

If you really want to advocate for anarchy on the grounds that it would be better to live in a world where people did the right thing just because it was the right thing, I recommend you open another thread. If you want to discuss the implications of legal decisions in the real world, belly up to the bar with something better than yawing about your thoughts about morals and ethics.

[BabaBooey]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare smoking to the sexual exploitation of underaged girls. In the second case, assuming no minimum wage, no one is going to take that job until the employer raises the rate to match what other establishments are paying for similar work. If that’s what other places are paying for that work, then the workers in the field will begin searching for other types of jobs, lowering the number of people in the field and forcing the payrate to rise or die out as it should. Still not really comparable to smoking in bars, though.

“People are inherently selfish and the needs and desires of others do not factor into their thinking most of the time.”

But what selfish act is taking place here? Is it not reasonable to expect that everyone in a given bar is there by choice, because they like it, because they either smoke or are not bothered so much by smokers that they would choose not to go? Many of those in support of bans claim it’s because there aren’t enough non smoking bars to support non smokers, but it’s clearly the other way around. I’ve never seen a non-smoking bar and I’ve never met someone who didn’t go to bars because of smoking, so I see no reason for the antis to piss in our Cheerios.

[aurelian]

Originally posted by duffer:
Of course, being an Evil SmokerTM I’m not a member of the public in your world.

How does it feel knowing you’re so much more important than me?

Duffer, let me get you a ladder and you can kiss my ass.

Why do you keep on ignoring posts like TeaElle’s and MagicEye’s and just keep on repeating your bullshit overgeneralizations? What is your problem? Have you fallen into some strange parallel universe wherein you cannot treat the other posters as rational? Has Dennis Hopper tied a bomb to you that will go off if you lay off the ‘ANTI-SMOKERS SUX!!1!!’ routine? Have you noticed a number of large ovoid pods around ‘the gloaming’ as of late?

[sweetfreak]

@TeaElle

Should you have a “right” to open a restaurant that isn’t inspected by health authorities?
Should you have a “right” to open a strip club which features fully nude 15 year old dancers?
Should you have a “right” to pay your employees $1 an hour so long as they’re willing (or more likely, desperate enough) to accept such a low wage?

Yes to all three questions. However, I wouldn’t do any of those things, because I do have a sense of responsibility and I don’t need a governing body telling me what is the right thing to do. Besides that, I would quickly go out of business if I tried to run any of those establisments. What would be in it for me? No one would eat at my restaurant if the food was making them sick, angry citizens would shut down my strip club, and if I was only paying my employees $1 per hour, they wouldn’t be working for me for long. I would gain nothing out of any of those ventures, so why would I even try?

@TeaElle

Rights are tempered with responsibilities, and as the owner of a public business (we’ve already established the concept of a “private business” as a canard) you have a responsibility to do what is right for those who enter your establishment.

Thank you for proving my point.

@TeaElle

And as much as you don’t like the reality that we are governed by laws, it is reality because people have proven for as long as we have existed in societies, that they absolutely cannot be trusted to do what is right where others are concerned. People are inherently selfish and the needs and desires of others do not factor into their thinking most of the time.

I couldn’t agree more.

@TeaElle

That’s why we have agreed upon rules which govern public behavior.

Who is “we”? Please clarify, because I can name a great number of people that don’t agree with these rules, especially those that are unconstitutional.

@TeaElle

If you really want to advocate for anarchy on the grounds that it would be better to live in a world where people did the right thing just because it was the right thing, I recommend you open another thread.

Honestly, I don’t think anarchy can work in this day and age. People aren’t ready for it. I think our constitution, as it was written, was a great idea, and that democracy can work if it truly is a democracy.

I really have no interest in opening another thread. My point is, not allowing someone to open their own “smoking allowed” business is unconstitutional.

[duffer]

@TeaElle

Should you have a “right” to open a strip club which features fully nude 15 year old dancers?
Should you have a “right” to pay your employees $1 an hour so long as they’re willing (or more likely, desperate enough) to accept such a low wage?

Well, this is the sort of people I’m railing against. I don’t see any argument supproting a smoking ban here.

aurelian, make your own fucking argument based on the OP or shut the fuck up. Seriously, you’ve made the Post-It List[sup]TM[/sup]. Calling you a fucktard would be an insult to assholes. Doesn’t make sense to you? Not a shocker. Go away and when return, bring an idea that you are not the only one living on this planet.

You self-loving piece of shit. Couldn’t you let the rest of us know your greatness before I opened this thread? Or did you miss the** “LOCAL”** in my title and pretty much everything I’ve said since.

If smoke-free establishments are such a big concern to you, then open one.

Until you link to your business, shut the fuck up and quit trying to twist this around your cock. You’re the kind of person I detest most. You think you know best for everyone, so you see no harm in forcing the government to sanction what you say is best for the majority. Stalin and Lenin are proud of you.

[aurelian]

LOCAL? Because you don’t have asthma in the Dakotas?

Holy crap, you are pathetic. Of course you can’t stand me, I don’t let you get away with claiming that all people who are ‘anti-smokers’ aren’t just hysterical busybodies: some of us are directly, immediately harmed by smoking. I have constantly repeated that I don’t have an interest in dictating the behavior of other people; but that I see no reason why my need to breathe should be automatically subsumed by someone’s desire to smoke.
I was actually trying to give a human face to your constant ‘anti-smokers think that all smokers are evil and want to control our personal choice’, but of course, you missed that part of my original post, as that would have required you to moderate your absolutist perspective.
I did make an argument based on your OP - that for you to dismiss all ‘anti-smokers’ as virulent busybodies is unfounded and unproductive. You have yet to address it.

And you haven’t yet given me an answer - you grab at straws.
I made an argument - you bemoaning the state of the world when people even want to ban smoking outside is incorrect. There are people (like me, and I use myself as an example not because of egocentrism but because it simplifies the argument and avoids the whole ‘second-hand smoke studies’ mess) who ARE damaged by cigarette smoke, even outside. Surprise, surprise, you haven’t answered that.

It bears repeating - you are pathetic. You read my posts so poorly that you actually posted that 1 in 4 people in Madison are in my profession - yes, duffer, there are over 50,000 Spanish doctoral students in Madison, Wisconsin. :rolleyes:

Open a business? With what? I make under the poverty line as a TA. The ‘if you don’t like this, why don’t you just leave’ argument - wow, haven’t come across that one since I was in high school.
What business would you like me to post? The one I work at? I’m not sure why that’s relevant, but I work at a Houlihan’s. [insert anotehr lame duffer ‘insult’ here on reply]

Your best insult is to call me a communist? Who are you, McCarthy?
You’re a misanthropic ass; you would prefer to ignore actual experience so that you can continue to maintain your sense of persecuted victimhood. I would much rather compromise - I give a little, you give a little, we’re a bit happier. But of course, you completely ignore any moderation, ignore my desire to NOT interfere in the lives of others, and accuse of things I explicitly stated I did NOT want.

WTF is the Post-It List? People who actually dare to challenge your carved-in-stone assumptions? People who don’t want to abide your dehumanizing stereotypes? And this is supposed to be an insult?

Oh, and what is a fucktard? You seem to have put an awful lot of thought into the semantic development and connotations of this word. Wonder why…

[aurelian]

Substitute ‘are’ for ‘aren’t’, in line 2.

[Yookeroo]

I just love how people who are forcing others to partake in their addiction, polluting the air, creating a health hazard and who generally see the world as a giant ashtray call non-smokers “selfish”.

And has anyone come up with that list of businesses that failed because of a ban on smoking?