# If you're 40 to 60 what's the chance you can upload to an AI existence before your meat death? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913 "2017-03-11T03:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/61 "2017-03-12T22:27:34Z")
If an eccentric billionaire was interested in this there isn’t anywhere he could shove his money besides basic science. Sure, fund 100 neurology postdocs, that couldn’t hurt. But we don’t even know the very basics of how memory is stored in the brain, aside from “it’s complicated”. So how exactly are we supposed to copy memories to some sort of computer substrate if we don’t even understand the physical basis of memory in the human brain? My prediction is that if we really do understand memory and human thinking on a physical basis, enough to record, understand, store, recreate, and modify such memories and thoughts–that means the end of humanity as we know it. Somebody is going to see the advantage of editing the human brain to turn people into natural slaves, and use those slaves to mindwipe more people, until most people on the planet are zombies carrying out the orders of the masters, until the master realize they have to modify themselves to win the wars against the other masters. Neurological grey goo scenario. Nobody is going to bother programming computers to pretend to be human beings, because what would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/62 "2017-03-12T22:34:47Z")
I believe that the line of research that will lead to this sort of thing will be attempts to treat brain injuries by implanting technology to interface with the good sections of the brain. Perhaps even earlier allowing people with paralysis to use their limbs. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/63 "2017-03-12T22:37:08Z")
I wonder though if you would transfer a consciousness into a computer, or copy it and keep the original. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/64 "2017-03-12T23:25:59Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I wonder though if you would transfer a consciousness into a computer … That would give a whole new meaning to “stream of consciousness.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/65 "2017-03-12T23:26:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > OMG it’s the Star Trek Transporter conundrum. > > Yes, OF COURSE it’s a copy. We know that. But the copy doesn’t know that! NoooOOooOO!! Spooooooocccccccccckkkkkkkk! In memory of your and my joint battle against the forces of disbelief in the last transporter thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/66 "2017-03-13T00:16:32Z")
I am just posting to say I read the title as “an Al existence.” I hate sans serif fonts because of this! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/67 "2017-03-13T01:33:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Your digital copy can decide how you like your toast and coffee like in black mirror. Ha! I saw that. But that is a whole 'nother app, not the kind of preservation of self/identity that is being discussed here. I don’t see how our consciousnesses could be separated from our bodies. It is kind of “ghost in the machine” thinking: you’ll just grab the ghost like he’s a hamster and put him into a nicer pen. The whole premise seems wrong-headed to me. I vote never, but I am not 100% certain. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/68 "2017-03-13T01:59:10Z")
I’ll be 40 next month. The odds of this happening in my lifetime are in the high zeros. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/69 "2017-03-13T08:41:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Let’s say you are between 40-60 today and you have (on average) 20-45 years or so before you die. What are the chances technology will have advanced enough in 20-45 years to allow a human brain to upload itself into an AI consciousness? Zero. It’s not a question of technology being advanced enough, it’s a question of whether it is even a possible thing to do - whether the nature of Mind is such that it can be divorced from substrate at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/70 "2017-03-13T08:47:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There is the fact that human and other mammalian brains are composed of ordinary matter arranged in ordinary ways. As far as we can tell there is no magic pixie dust sprinkled in there. So building some sort of hardware and software that works like a human brain is physically possible, since we have billions of examples of the proof of concept running around. It might be possible (I think it is) that the only thing that can replicate the physical environment for a human consciousness is another, identical brain in an identical body and magical lossless transference of state. That anything you’d get onto a machine would just be a (close, probably very close) simulacrum of the same, not an actual continuation of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/71 "2017-03-13T10:33:19Z")
> [@Atomic\_Alex](#): > > Surface Tension by Iain M Banks _Surface Detail_\*\* ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/72 "2017-03-13T11:26:37Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Kind of kills the dream of immortality through these means. You die, a copy lives on. What good has that done for YOU? Because plenty of people believe that a perfectly identical copy of you is, in fact, you. And it’s not obvious to argue otherwise unless you assume that something immaterial, like a soul, makes you you. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/73 "2017-03-13T11:30:58Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > My prediction is that if we really do understand memory and human thinking on a physical basis, enough to record, understand, store, recreate, and modify such memories and thoughts–that means the end of humanity as we know it. Somebody is going to see the advantage of editing the human brain to turn people into natural slaves Not necessarily, but it’s obvious that if we know exactly how the brain work, we could, as you said, edit it (long before being able to make a complete artificial brain). Which is a scary prospect in itself, even without involving slavery. And the worst part is that, unless we manage to off ourselves in another creative way, it will someday happen. I’m pretty pessimistic about humanity’s prospects in the medium term (like 200 years or so). ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/74 "2017-03-13T11:36:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Surface Detail_\*\* You are of course correct, I shall now go and throw myself off a bridge in penance. Don’t worry, its a small bridge > [@clairobscur](#): > > Not necessarily, but it’s obvious that if we know exactly how the brain work, we could, as you said, edit it. Which is a scary prospect in itself, even without involving slavery. > > And the worst part is that, unless we manage to off ourselves in another creative way, it will someday happen. > > I’m pretty pessimistic about humanity’s prospects in the medium term (like 200 years or so). There are plenty of people who would be just fine with editing other people’s minds so that they were not able to even think or conceive of ‘unacceptable’ ideas let alone discuss them. Current methods for such control are crude and ineffective but that may not always be the case. I’m cautiously optimistic about the future but I do think there will be very tough times ahead, my only real regret about dying is that I won’t be around to see what happens in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/75 "2017-03-13T12:16:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Sure if you are talking about per unit volume, perhaps. What’s the speed we’ll get with quantum computing? There are some problems that can be solved by quantum computing much faster than with conventional computers, but there are many types for which quantum computing is no greater advantage at all. > [@](#): > > But aside from that a building of processors running in parallel can scale practically indefinitely. Along with scaling practically indefinitely in price and power consumption. > [@](#): > > You think that biological has some intrinsic capability that silicon can’t replicate with regards to processing? Yes, at least in real-world, practical senses. Computer logic circuits are two-dimensional, and the output from one flows directly to the input to a very small potential number of others. Neurons are arranged in 3D and can directly connect to thousands of other neurons. Emulating that very aggressively 3D arrangement in 2D computer chips will use vast amounts of chip surface area. In an industry where chip areas are measured in the 10s or low 100s of square millimeters, it might take square _meters_ of chip to fully simulate a human brain. My mentions of Moore’s law was to point out that we are almost at the very, very, very end of how small we can shrink components on a silicon chip–we are at or almost at the point where the placement of individual atoms makes or breaks the function of the chip. And they are already very leaky due to quantum tunneling, so that you have to pour more electricity into them. You know what you call a very thin wire with lots of electricity being poured into it? An incandescent light bulb. And the faster you switch the chip on and off, the more heat is going to produce. So you will need more and more aggressive cooling technologies. Speaking of how fast you switch the chip on and off, at the speed modern computers operate, even light moves slowly. Even if you had optical links between chips running at full clock speed, with a 4 GHz system (for example) the signal would more less than 8 centimeters. So there is a limit to how fast information can propagate between the many, many, many chips you would need to run your human brain simulation. So, let’s say that there is a little more life left in semiconductor technology before the quantum tunneling and heat problems become utter brick walls. Let’s be very generous and say that these future advances will mean that simulating a human brain will take a minuscule 350 thousand CPUs instead of 350 million in my earlier mention. Let’s say that you can get an excellent bulk price of 50 bucks each for those CPUs. That’ll rack up to only $17,500,000 for the CPUs needed to build your human brain simulator. That isn’t counting the extra computer hardware, the pumping for the liquid nitrogen to cool the chips, or the dedicated nuclear power plant to run the computer. For _one_ person. Uploads are not going to happen. They are just one more incredibly silly science fiction fantasy, like cheap casual interstellar travel, antigravity, hologram projectors, and time machines. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/76 "2017-03-13T13:57:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Because plenty of people believe that a perfectly identical copy of you is, in fact, you. > > And it’s not obvious to argue otherwise unless you assume that something immaterial, like a soul, makes you you. Belief shmelief. Yes, something immaterial makes you you, but we don’t have to resort to speculating about souls. It is “continuity.” Kill the original and “you” are dead, your consciousness comes to an end. Make a convincing copy and that’s great, but you’re still dead. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/77 "2017-03-13T14:19:24Z")
The unknown here is the effect of advances in how we interface with our technology. While currently we’re at the beginning of partially changing from touch to voice control, there is no reason that there will not be significant economic resources spent on developing even more direct connections between our brains and our technology. ---
**Author:** ![Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/section_maker_jupe/32/1424_2.png) [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Section_Maker_Jupe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/78 "2017-03-13T15:37:02Z")
Well , brain transplants are doing well. Thats within our tech. 🆒 Just find an empty clone and on you go. With all our amazing processing power, sometimes, yeah…toast and coffee is about all it can handle. (speaking for myself of course, you contributors to these threads always amaze me, good work!) > **[World’s First Head Transplant A Success After Nineteen Hour Operation - News...](https://newsexaminer.net/lifestyle/health/worlds-first-head-transplant-a-success/)** > > The ground-breaking operation took a team of surgeons nineteen hours and has allowed the patient to be cancer-free. Johannesburg, South Africa — A 36-year-old man has undergone the world’s first successful head transplant. The ground-breaking... ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/79 "2017-03-13T15:54:50Z")
> [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](#): > > Well , brain transplants are doing well. Thats within our tech. 🆒 Just find an empty clone and on you go. > > With all our amazing processing power, sometimes, yeah…toast and coffee is about all it can handle. > (speaking for myself of course, you contributors to these threads always amaze me, good work!) > > [http://newsexaminer.net/health/worlds-first-head-transplant-a-success/](http://newsexaminer.net/health/worlds-first-head-transplant-a-success/) Is the News Examiner a serious source of news or is it basically The Onion? Serious and not snarky question, because I would have thought that would be bigger news if it was true. Also even if a head could be transplanted as far as I understand it there is no way to reconnect nerves, so the person might be alive but they couldn’t get up and move around. I do remember a head transplant operation being proposed because it was discussed in the office at work and I lost some of my faith in humanity that day as apparently intelligent and reasonably well-educated people didn’t seem to understand or comprehend that the seat of conciousness resides in the brain and not anywhere else in the body. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913/80 "2017-03-13T18:30:21Z")
> [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](#): > > Well , brain transplants are doing well. Thats within our tech. 🆒 Just find an empty clone and on you go. > > With all our amazing processing power, sometimes, yeah…toast and coffee is about all it can handle. > (speaking for myself of course, you contributors to these threads always amaze me, good work!) > > [http://newsexaminer.net/health/worlds-first-head-transplant-a-success/](http://newsexaminer.net/health/worlds-first-head-transplant-a-success/) That article is fake, fake, fake. Seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-40-to-60-whats-the-chance-you-can-upload-to-an-ai-existence-before-your-meat-death/781913.md?page=5)