# If you're a Bernie supporter, are you willing to vote for Hillary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2016, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070 "2016-05-18T09:36:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/241 "2016-06-08T00:32:29Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I didn’t see myself doing any yelling. That’s your imagination. Anyway, my main criticisms are leveled at those who not only believe that we should vote for Clinton, but who have been suggesting that those who will not vote for her are “morons” (that’s apparently OK in an Elections thread, as long as you generalize about who the morons are?) who don’t understand how the electoral system works. I understand it just fine. In fact, despite being an immigrant, i’ll bet i understand it better than (conservatively) 99 percent of the US population. I don’t think people who won’t vote for Clinton are morons. I do think that lots of people on both sides are frustrated. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/242 "2016-06-08T00:36:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think people who won’t vote for Clinton are morons. I do think that lots of people on both sides are frustrated. That’s about it. A frustrated person who doesn’t accept 90% of what they want instead of 0% can be pretty fairly said to be doing something stupid. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/243 "2016-06-08T00:37:57Z")
What if you want a change to how politics is done? What if you’re tired of spin, handlers, fake political stances, and outright lying? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/244 "2016-06-08T00:38:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A frustrated person who doesn’t accept 90% of what they want instead of 0% can be pretty fairly said to be doing something stupid. Meh. It’s a long time until the general election. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/245 "2016-06-08T01:10:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What if you want a change to how politics is done? What if you’re tired of spin, handlers, fake political stances, and outright lying? Then certainly, giving the run of the country, the SCOTUS nominations, the congress and the nuclear codes to a guy stupid and inept enough to think Obama was born in Kenya, and Mexico will build a border wall for us, is a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/246 "2016-06-08T04:24:13Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Entrenching the insurers by passing laws forcing people to do business with them is not progress towards getting rid of the insurers entirely. Incrementally forcing them into a non-viable business plan is… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/247 "2016-06-08T13:47:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What if you want a change to how politics is done? What if you’re tired of spin, handlers, fake political stances, and outright lying? You probably need to get untired of them. This is how humans have done politics forever. With the exception of absolute dictators who don’t bother to spin. Other countries and other times have the same issues. Henry VIII had handlers, although his PR machine was rather old fashioned by modern standards. Chinese emperors had the same issues - although they didn’t have to make their will palatable to the people, the politics among the elite was literally cutthroat. The Jefferson hatchet job on Adams - he actually paid someone to print untrue dirt on one of his oldest friends and mentors - is an example from our own History. Italy, Britain, France - they’ve all had their share of spin, handlers, and lying - and scandals. Its naive to think politics will ever be anything other than political. We can change the shape - i.e. we could get big money out, we could change the way primaries and caucuses work. But you aren’t going to change the core nature of politics or politicians. Add in a free press, freedom of speech, and the ability of ordinary citizens to communicate to thousands of people at a time - and all that’s going to do is amplify the perception of spin, lying, etc. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/248 "2016-06-08T20:19:41Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You probably need to get untired of them. This is how humans have done politics forever. With the exception of absolute dictators who don’t bother to spin. > > Other countries and other times have the same issues. Henry VIII had handlers, although his PR machine was rather old fashioned by modern standards. Chinese emperors had the same issues - although they didn’t have to make their will palatable to the people, the politics among the elite was literally cutthroat. The Jefferson hatchet job on Adams - he actually paid someone to print untrue dirt on one of his oldest friends and mentors - is an example from our own History. Italy, Britain, France - they’ve all had their share of spin, handlers, and lying - and scandals. > > Its naive to think politics will ever be anything other than political. We can change the shape - i.e. we could get big money out, we could change the way primaries and caucuses work. But you aren’t going to change the core nature of politics or politicians. Add in a free press, freedom of speech, and the ability of ordinary citizens to communicate to thousands of people at a time - and all that’s going to do is amplify the perception of spin, lying, etc. All I ask is for a little more maturity in the process. Whenever I see refusal to answer direct questions, attempting to get around laws rather than implement them faithfully, or using weird accounting tricks to make the numbers add up I see it less as corrupt behavior than the behavior of children. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/249 "2016-06-09T23:21:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A frustrated person who doesn’t accept 90% of what they want instead of 0% can be pretty fairly said to be doing something stupid. People keep saying stuff like that. Where do you get this 90% figure? Thinking about the issues that are important to me, and arbitrarily assigning them each a 25% share of importance: On civil rights issues, Clinton is as good as Sanders, with the significant exception of issues related to drug prohibition. Call it 20%. On economic and environmental issues, as far as I am aware Clinton has not proposed any major initiatives comparable to what Sanders has proposed: she doesn’t want to ban fracking, doesn’t want single-payer health care, doesn’t want a $15 minimum wage, etc. That’s 0 of a possible 50%. Foreign policy is tough to judge, since we can’t know what decisions the President will have to face in the future. Clinton’s record of supporting the Iraq war doesn’t fill me with confidence, but she did seem to be a reasonably competent Secretary of State, so I’ll give her half credit. 12.5%. So that’s a total of about 37.5% of what I want. Whoopee. This election feels like a choice between eating dog food and dog shit; one choice is clearly far superior, but don’t expect me to be enthusiastic about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/250 "2016-06-09T23:36:07Z")
Why are you comparing her to Sanders instead of to the person she will actually be facing in November? That’s your choice, you know. She already beat Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/251 "2016-06-09T23:38:29Z")
For now Sanders reminds me of the Japanese soldier who did not surrender until 1974. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/252 "2016-06-10T00:19:52Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > On economic and environmental issues, as far as I am aware Clinton has not proposed any major initiatives comparable to what Sanders has proposed: she doesn’t want to ban fracking, doesn’t want single-payer health care, doesn’t want a $15 minimum wage, etc. That’s 0 of a possible 50%. Does she not want these things, or is she not campaigning on these things because she does not believe they are plausible? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/253 "2016-06-10T00:45:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Does she not want these things, or is she not campaigning on these things because she does not believe they are plausible? I didn’t want to even get into the details because the issue is how she stacks up against Trump so the whole post didn’t make any sense as a premise. But since you brought it up, [Hillary on Fracking](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/03/hillary-clinton-debate-fracking): > [@](#): > > She’s against it “when any locality or any state is against it,” “when the release of methane or contamination of water is present,” and “unless we can require that anybody who fracks has to tell us exactly what chemicals they are using.” > > Until those conditions are met, “we’ve got to regulate everything that is currently underway, and we have to have a system in place that prevents further fracking.” > > “By the time we get through all of my conditions, I do not think there will be many places in America where fracking will continue to take place,” she added. [Hillary on Single Payer](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/): > [@](#): > > “I want you to understand why I am fighting so hard for the Affordable Care Act,” she said at Grand View University after hearing from a woman who spoke about her daughter receiving cancer treatment thanks to the health care law. “I don’t want it repealed, I don’t want us to be thrown back into a terrible, terrible national debate. I don’t want us to end up in gridlock. People can’t wait!” > > She added, “People who have health emergencies can’t wait for us to have a theoretical debate about some better idea that will never, ever come to pass.” [Hillary on a $15 minimum wage](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/15/bernie-s/does-hillary-clinton-want-15-or-12-minimum-wage/): > [@](#): > > Since early on in her campaign, Clinton has supported the Fight for $15’s efforts in individual cities and states. But her official position is that she prefers a $12 federal minimum wage as a floor, allowing cities and states to go further. > > Sanders’ has a point that he is calling for a federal minimum wage that would be $3 more an hour than what Clinton says she favors. However, he misses the nuance that Clinton is also supportive of local efforts to raise the minimum wage to $15. So on these three issues, Hillary says fracking is fine (provided you meet a ton of regulations that make it incredibly difficult to actually happen), single payer simply won’t happen (and is there any evidence that she is wrong here?) and $15 an hour is great at local levels. Let’s compare this to the person that **Thing Fish** should be comparing her to, Donald Trump. [On Fracking](https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/198131842593984515): > [@](#): > > Fracking will lead to American energy independence. With price of natural gas continuing to drop, we can be at a tremendous advantage. [On Single Payer](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/02/rick-perry/donald-trump-still-single-payer-health-care/): > [@](#): > > Fifteen years ago, Trump was decidedly for a universal healthcare system that resembled Canada’s system, in which the government pays for care for all citizens. Recently, he’s said he admires Scotland’s single-payer system and disses the Affordable Care Act as incompetently implemented. > > However, a Trump spokesman denied that the candidate supported “socialized medicine” and suggested Trump prefers a “free-market” solution. [On any minimum wage](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/278778-trump-expresses-openness-to-raising-minimum-wage): > [@](#): > > During a November debate, Trump voiced opposition to raising the minimum wage. > > “I hate to say it, but we have to leave it the way it is,” he said during the debate. > > On Wednesday, Trump did caution that lawmakers would have to be careful not to raise the minimum too much. > > “If you start playing around too much with that lower level number, you are not going to be competitive,” he said, before reiterating that he’s “open to doing something” with the federal minimum wage. So Hillary is in favor of regulating Fracking to death while Trump is all in favor of it. Hillary doesn’t think it’s feasible and Donald wants a “market solution.” Hillary wants $12 an hour at a minimum, Trump has been all over the place and has not used an actual number for raising it. So either Thing Fish doesn’t actually know the candidates respective positions on these issues or was so broken up that Sanders will not be on the ballot in November that s/he forgot. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/254 "2016-06-10T00:54:36Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Why are you comparing her to Sanders instead of to the person she will actually be facing in November? That’s your choice, you know. She already beat Sanders. WTF? Try reading the post. I explicitly said she is far superior to Trump. I’m just annoyed that people try to minimize the real and significant differences between the candidates. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Does she not want these things, or is she not campaigning on these things because she does not believe they are plausible? Does it matter? Most Americans want single payer. If it’s not plausible under our current corporate money dominated political system, I would say that’s a pretty damning indictment of the system. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/255 "2016-06-10T00:59:56Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > WTF? Try reading the post. I explicitly said she is far superior to Trump. I’m just annoyed that people try to minimize the real and significant differences between the candidates. The whole issue is Hillary vs. Trump. Seriously, that’s the topic of discussion. Hillary vs. Sanders already happened and nobody that I know of blamed you for supporting Sanders over Clinton regarding policy (in fact I supported Sanders over Clinton over policy). So your whole post is confusing and irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Does it matter? Most Americans want single payer. If it’s not plausible under our current corporate money dominated political system, I would say that’s a pretty damning indictment of the system. Most want universal background checks on guns too. That didn’t happen even when the president went all out in support of it. So merely having the President in favor of something, even something that a majority of Americans want, doesn’t guarantee it will happen. If the public really wanted single payer as much as they claim, they would be voting for candidates in house and senate races that agree with them and are willing to take that fight to Washington. Merely having Bernie in the White House won’t help. He’s not a dictator. Sorry, but you are being very naive. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/256 "2016-06-10T01:43:55Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Most Americans want single payer. If it’s not plausible under our current corporate money dominated political system, I would say that’s a pretty damning indictment of the system. I dearly hope this is the case. And I dearly hope that Most Americans want it enough that they (we) will start refusing to return legislators to Washington who do not work toward making that a reality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/257 "2016-06-10T02:10:12Z")
Sadly [Americans Don’t Know What ‘Single Payer’ Means](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/02/people-have-no-idea-what-single-payer-means/471045/)! But when they find out, they don’t like it… > [@](#): > > When asked their view of “single-payer” health care—what such a system is often called—the respondents seemed to like it. “A slim plurality of 39 percent supports replacing the private health insurance system with a single government-run, taxpayer-funded plan that would cover medical, dental, vision and long-term care, with 33 percent opposed,” the AP’s Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar and Emily Swanson write. Just 26 percent, meanwhile, support the existing Obamacare law. > > But when asked whether they’d be willing to either pay higher taxes for such a plan or give up their own, employer-sponsored plans for a government-run insurance plan, they were decidedly less bullish. Thirty-nine percent said they would oppose a plan that meant either of those steps. Support thinned further as the pollsters brought up the other potential pitfalls of single-payer systems. > > A Kaiser Family Foundation poll, also from Thursday, found that people feel similarly thrown by the phrase “Medicare for All.” Thirty-six percent of respondents viewed that “very positively,” but only 15 percent felt that way about “single payer.” If I were Politifact, I would label **Thing Fish** ’s claim Mostly False. And as for how this kind of response bodes for a politician making Single Payer the law of the land, how many people believed that the ACA meant government [death panels](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/dec/18/politifact-lie-year-death-panels/)? I loves me some Bernie and I would loves me some Single Payer healthcare but polls like the cited and how we handled the ACA tells me that Sanders would have even less of a chance of making it happen as President than Obama had with closing Guantanamo Bay. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/258 "2016-06-10T04:49:54Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Does it matter? Most Americans want single payer. If it’s not plausible under our current corporate money dominated political system, I would say that’s a pretty damning indictment of the system. It would also be an extremely difficult sell in America because one of the keys to making it work in most European countries has been to be able to squeeze doctors a lot more than they do hear. Matthew Yglesias, who no one would consider a right-winger has wrote on that quite a bit and pointed out that it was the doctors who killed the “public option” during the debate over Obamacare and frankly anyone who thinks that when the doctors butt head with the politicians that the ordinary folks are going to decide the politicians are more trustworthy really hasn’t looked at who the public trusts more. ---
**Author:** ![Onetruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Onetruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onetruth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/259 "2016-06-10T06:20:23Z")
I see the majority of people believing that simply because a candidate has the most delegates that they are automatically the one everyone is going to side with, and that could not be farther from the truth. Bernie mentioned several polls that show people favor him greatly over Trump that also show Hillary and Trump being neck and neck. CNN has mentioned several times over that Bernie supporters are siding more with Trump than Hillary, so we can clearly expect Trump to win by a landslide should she steal the democratic nomination, which she has done. To present the straight dope on the matter - Hillary has supported NAFTA for a very long time and was even caught lying to the American people saying she was suspicious of it while White House documents prove she was supporting it will Bill. I challenge everyone who doesn’t honestly know what NAFTA is, to watch a documentary called, [Trading Democracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lE1u1SSVK8) with Bill Moyers. If you vote for Hillary you are voting to give multi-national corporations more power of communities than the officials that we elect into office, and that is simply reprehensible. Long in short - vote Bernie if you want democracy and equality, vote Hillary of you like extreme poverty and fascism and vote Trump of you want politically incorrect national security and a revamped economy. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/260 "2016-06-10T07:27:09Z")
> [@Onetruth](#): > > Bernie mentioned several polls that show people favor him greatly over Trump that also show Hillary and Trump being neck and neck. The trend here is clearly changing. After Trump’s recent remarks, there’s been a clear treand, with Hillary gaining on him in the polls. He’s become so toxic nobody wants anything to do with him. Not that it really matters at this point; Sanders will not be the democratic nominee barring a dead boy/live girl scenario for Clinton. Unless you think he’s going to go for a third-party run, which would be just about the dumbest thing he could do and would ensure that neither he nor Clinton stands a remote chance in ghe general election, then Hillary is the de facto democratic nominee. > [@](#): > > CNN has mentioned several times over that Bernie supporters are siding more with Trump than Hillary, so we can clearly expect Trump to win by a landslide should she steal the democratic nomination, which she has done. “Steal”. Because, you know, she didn’t win it by millions of votes, wasn’t favored in the polls literally from day one until the end (no, seriously, there was [literally no point during the race where Sanders was ahead in the national polls](http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/national-primary-polls/democratic/); a whole 6 polls taken during that period had him ahead at all, and those polls had margins of a tiny handful of points, whereas quite a few polls had Clinton beating him by 20+ points), and didn’t have every advantage anyways, she also needed to “steal” it. Which she didn’t do in the last primary election against a similarly upstart candidate who beat her. Makes sense. > [@](#): > > To present the straight dope on the matter - Hillary has supported NAFTA for a very long time and was even caught lying to the American people saying she was suspicious of it while White House documents prove she was supporting it will Bill. I challenge everyone who doesn’t honestly know what NAFTA is, to watch a documentary called, [Trading Democracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lE1u1SSVK8) with Bill Moyers. If you vote for Hillary you are voting to give multi-national corporations more power of communities than the officials that we elect into office, and that is simply reprehensible. Has anyone watched or fact-checked this documentary? I can’t watch it right now, but when the cite for an argument is an hour-long video, my baloney detector starts going off. > [@](#): > > Long in short - vote Bernie if you want democracy and equality, Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Like it or not, Sanders is not a viable candidate any more. > [@](#): > > vote Hillary of you like extreme poverty and fascism You must be new here. The interesting thing is that on this forum, when you make statements, you’re typically expected to back them up. Even assuming that NAFTA was a _Bad Thing_™, the Clinton years were pretty great, economy-wise, and it certainly hasn’t killed our economy in the intervening years. So I don’t know why you think “extreme poverty” is going to be the result of a Clinton presidency. Fascism? Where the hell does that even come from? I have no idea what you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > and vote Trump of you want politically incorrect national security and a revamped economy. And here things fly completely off the rails. “Politically incorrect national security”? What does that even _mean_? What, you think Trump’s going to have a net positive effect on our national security? Because, you know, he has such an expansive foreign policy experience, and such well-thought-out proposals (such as blowing up NATO, cozying up to Russia, and torture)? Or is it just the [stupid psychopath argument](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433296/donald-trump-stupid-psychopath-ignorance-policy-complex-problems) again, i.e. “If only we had someone willing to be enough of an asshole, then that person would solve our problems”? Because that’s a really stupid argument. As for the economy, what, exactly, does Trump bring to the table there. His business acumen? Businessmen typically give rotten economic advice. We’ve seen this from Trump himself - his comments on debt indicate that [he’s willing to put the creditworthiness of the USA in question](http://www.vox.com/2016/5/6/11607464/trump-haircut-default-debt), as though the USA was one of his business ventures where he can get away with declaring bankruptcy (as opposed to, yanno, the safest investment on the planet and the bedrock upon which much of the global financial system rests). And that’s even assuming that he is a good businessman. His claimed wealth (we say “claimed” because he refuses to release his tax returns, for all we know his net worth could be far below the claimed billions) is [lower than what he would get if he had just stuck his initial “small million-dollar loan” in an index fund](http://www.vox.com/2015/9/2/9248963/donald-trump-index-fund), and seems to be built largely on [bullying and refusing to pay people](http://www.businessinsider.de/businesses-and-employees-accuse-donald-trump-of-not-paying-them-2016-6?r=US&IR=T). Very presidential. Seriously, where do people get this crap? Where does this idea come from that Trump has decent policy proposals on… Well, _anything_? It sure as hell doesn’t come from any actual analysis of his proposals, I’ll tell you that much. The irony here is that Clinton actually has provided numerous expansive and well-thought-out policy proposals on subjects ranging from the economy to national security. She actually does have experience in politics, and a strong record to work off of. Yet somehow, you think that a random wahoo who thinks torture and colonialism (no, [fucking really](http://www.vox.com/world/2016/5/27/11608580/donald-trump-foreign-policy-war-iraq-hillary-clinton)) is the answer to our terrorism problem is going to be better on national security than an active secretary of state known for her diplomacy. Has the world gone mad? Is it really all just style over substance? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070.md?page=14)