# If you're a Bernie supporter, are you willing to vote for Hillary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2016, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070 "2016-05-18T09:36:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/81 "2016-05-21T21:02:04Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Short term if Trump wins he gets 2 years with a Republican house to do their thing. With a little luck they will do so badly that America actually votes in the mid-terms and elects some actual humans to congress. > > I seriously do not think that Trump is capable of doing the harm people seem to be worried about. > > Clinton on the other hand is literally just one more politician that is part of the Order of Things here in America. If elected it will be the establishment of the second dynasty in this supposedly democratic nation. > > Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong term I think Clinton does far more harm that Trump could ever dream of. I think electing yet another flip flopping/pandering/corporate goat felcher to the office of the president at the only time in living memory people are seriously pissed off at the status quo sets us back decades in getting our shitty, corrupt, backwards, ignorant, so called leadership to either lead or get out. > > tldnr yes its either Sanders or Trump. Yeahrite, Trump won’t do any damage. As world markets crash on Inauguration Day; previous allies turn away from us because of the clueless foreign-policy statements he’s _already_ made, let alone the ones he will make; terrorists enjoy their biggest recruitment tool in history; actual, positive changes made by the Obama administration are revoked (see ACA); and Trump sits in his office fiddling while it burns. But at least he’ll get the ultimate ego trip. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/82 "2016-05-21T21:26:07Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > As an observer, I find this abstract intellectualizing very strange… If I vote Socialist to bloc the Front National, I am voting for something, I am voting for the message that the FN shall not be acceptable on the\* liberale\* side of the politics and not as an expression of support for the statist, socialist policy of a Hollande. This is a positive statement. With respect, no. This is explicitly not a positive statement; it is entirely _about_ the negative, rejected side of the equation. You could substitute another value for the “Socialist” operand without changing the meaning, but not for the “Front National.” > [@Sherrerd](#): > > _The job of governing is a job_. No one who applies for the job will be perfect in the eyes of any one particular voter; but _one_ of those applying will be better than others applying, and the responsible voter chooses on that basis. Yes, _that_ would be a positive choice. But the arguments offered, here and in the general media, are overwhelmingly not that Clinton is better than alternatives, but that Trump is worse. They are arguments the meaning of which does not change if another name is substituted for “Hillary Clinton,” only for “Donald Trump.” You see? If this choice is important to you, I think it is a mistake to approach it only in this one direction. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/83 "2016-05-21T21:36:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yeahrite, Trump won’t do any damage. As world markets crash on Inauguration Day; previous allies turn away from us because of the clueless foreign-policy statements he’s _already_ made, let alone the ones he will make; terrorists enjoy their biggest recruitment tool in history; actual, positive changes made by the Obama administration are revoked (see ACA); and Trump sits in his office fiddling while it burns. But at least he’ll get the ultimate ego trip. Well first off I said I don’t think he is capable of doing the damage some people think he is…then you go off and say things that make it look like hes the actual anti christ or something. The current system is broken, broken possibly beyond repair but certainly beyond repair by the people who are supposed to be doing the repairing. If burning it to the ground is what it takes to start over again then yes I am actually for that. If we keep electing the same people who profit from and run the current system then our grandchildren will inherit this garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/84 "2016-05-21T21:43:24Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Well first off I said I don’t think he is capable of doing the damage some people think he is…then you go off and say things that make it look like hes the actual anti christ or something. > > The current system is broken, broken possibly beyond repair but certainly beyond repair by the people who are supposed to be doing the repairing. If burning it to the ground is what it takes to start over again then yes I am actually for that. If we keep electing the same people who profit from and run the current system then our grandchildren will inherit this garbage. Wow, advocating violence to get your change? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/85 "2016-05-21T21:44:38Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yes. And that’s what responsible voters do: make a positive statement of both what they do want and what they don’t want. > > The excuses people make for declining to vote or for voting in such a way that the worst possible candidate wins (e.g. voting for a 3rd-party candidate in close races), probably seem to make sense to those offering the excuses: ‘I want to vote _for_ something;’ ‘I have to vote my _conscience_;’ ‘I want to vote for someone I _believe_ in;’ I will vote only if a candidate _inspires_ me;’ ‘it’s up to the _candidate_ to motivate me to vote,’ etc. > > In reality these are not responsible positions to take. _The job of governing is a job_. No one who applies for the job will be perfect in the eyes of any one particular voter; but _one_ of those applying will be better than others applying, and the responsible voter chooses on that basis. Responsible voters don’t passively sit back and demand to be inspired. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Yes, _that_ would be a positive choice. > > But the arguments offered, here and in the general media, are overwhelmingly not that Clinton is better than alternatives, but that Trump is worse. They are arguments the meaning of which does not change if another name is substituted for “Hillary Clinton,” only for “Donald Trump.” You see? I see that this is meaning-free wordplay. If the choice is between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, there is no logical distinction between a belief that Clinton is better, and a belief that Trump is worse. If one is better, then the other is worse. The attempt to create some sort of significance in this wordplay seems to me to be a sort of self-delusion. It’s a trait endemic in all homo sapiens to want to feel righteous and justified (and I’m not exempting myself). But unfortunately, where legitimate reasons for a choice are in short supply, mystical thinking (such as seeing meaningful differences in wordplay that the actual English language does not support) can hold sway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/86 "2016-05-21T22:52:06Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > If burning it to the ground is what it takes to start over again then yes I am actually for that. This is a brave position to take. Brave, that is, assuming that you’re one of the people who would suffer in the burning. People like, say, recent immigrants to the US, or Muslims, or people raising families in poverty, or citizens of Syria, or women of childbearing age. Which of these groups do you belong to, that we may applaud your bravery and willingness to make significant sacrifices in order to promote the long-term health of our country? Because if you’re not among the groups likeliest to suffer under a Trump presidency, then it sounds an awful lot like you’re telling us you’re willing to let other people besides yourself suffer a lot in order to promote your own political interests. And that’s not brave at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/87 "2016-05-21T23:00:52Z")
I know of many people in history who decided that “burn it to the ground and start over” was the best way of achieving long-term benefits. Pol Pot had his killing fields. Mao had his Great Leap Forward. We know what Hitler had. Stalin had his Terror Famine. Robespierre had his Reign of Terror. I don’t know of many people in history who decided to burn it to the ground and start over and who are remembered for the wisdom of their plan. Can anyone help me out here? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/88 "2016-05-22T01:24:15Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Well first off I said I don’t think he is capable of doing the damage some people think he is…then you go off and say things that make it look like hes the actual anti christ or something. Trump isn’t smart or experienced enough to be the antichrist. He’s more like the five-year-old playing with matches in a warehouse filled with gasoline, who will swear up and down that he didn’t do it when it explodes. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/89 "2016-05-22T07:31:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a brave position to take. Brave, that is, assuming that you’re one of the people who would suffer in the burning. People like, say, recent immigrants to the US, or Muslims, or people raising families in poverty, or citizens of Syria, or women of childbearing age. Which of these groups do you belong to, that we may applaud your bravery and willingness to make significant sacrifices in order to promote the long-term health of our country? > > Because if you’re not among the groups likeliest to suffer under a Trump presidency, then it sounds an awful lot like you’re telling us you’re willing to let other people besides yourself suffer a lot in order to promote your own political interests. And that’s not brave at all. White, Male, and poor as hell. Could I suffer? yes. Could others suffer worse? yes. Look at Washington states tax system, it does far more damage to people like me than virtually everyone in the state making more money than I do. On top of this the various state, county, and city governments giving tax breaks to corporations which in reality are tax burdens on the citizens of those areas. This is a system that you could throw completely into the trash bin and start over from scratch. Will it ever get tossed out and created anew from whole cloth into something that isn’t an embarrassment? Hell no, not while the people in charge profit from that system. Scale that up all the way to the federal government and this is what I am talking about. I am not calling for violence although I can certainly see why you would think that from my choice of words. I will say that if a full session of congress with a crap ton of corporate lobbyists got taken out by a meteor I would be more likely to cheer than shed a tear. Not because I want to see them dead, but because for me the removal of 90% of this countries problems in an instant certainly would be a silver lining. If you think electing Clinton to office will make things better then vote for her. I personally think that while in the short term shes not Trump in the long term she is worse. She is the candidate who will give us more of the same thing we have seen for decades, My Grandparents voted for some of the people who told us one thing and did another, My parents did the same, I have done the same, at what point do we the informed voter stop feeding the system? When do you finally stop voting for those who pander the best? Do you want your great grand children to sit around one day bitching about a government that takes their tax dollars and gives it to profitable corporations the way we do right now? When do you start to look at the long term consequences instead of fearing the short term ones? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/90 "2016-05-22T09:57:23Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > With respect, no. This is explicitly not a positive statement; it is entirely _about_ the negative, rejected side of the equation. You could substitute another value for the “Socialist” operand without changing the meaning, but not for the “Front National.” Without the respect for the silliness of such abstractions, we have in the European experience learned some thing. The POSITIVE statement that some kinds of the rhetoric and politics are to be refused by the democratics parties even at the cost of moving the votes to the opposition is important. It is the POSITIVE statement that there is a standard. Abstractly theorizing is sterile foolishness in front of the binary choice. In the Run-off election where there is a binary choice in the result, then the positive choice is the one that asserts the common societal vision held in the democratic center. We learned painfully what happens when the anti-democratic fringes, for short-term political tactics, can get access to the central power. Representation is one thing, but leadership is another. The choice of the center right parties voters in a French context to throw votes to the PS against FN is not merely about a negative statement - no FN, this is not a party blockage. no it is a direct choice about a statement of the acceptable in the political discourse for leading the nation. Thisunderstanding is about the Positive vision of that, and t that the democratic center is more fragile and the demagogic fascisms can destroy it. So even a liberal party and the liberal voters in favor a less government and more markets must vote to block the fascist who may use some of the attractive anti-Left discourse, and not make the short-termist mistakes of the 1920-1930s. You americans have not suffered such things and can remain naïve and theoretical, fooling yourselfs. But I think what is in Trump is clear. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/91 "2016-05-22T11:44:48Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > White, Male, and poor as hell. > > Could I suffer? yes. Could others suffer worse? yes. > > Look at Washington states tax system, it does far more damage to people like me than virtually everyone in the state making more money than I do. On top of this the various state, county, and city governments giving tax breaks to corporations which in reality are tax burdens on the citizens of those areas. This is a system that you could throw completely into the trash bin and start over from scratch. Will it ever get tossed out and created anew from whole cloth into something that isn’t an embarrassment? Hell no, not while the people in charge profit from that system. Scale that up all the way to the federal government and this is what I am talking about. > > I am not calling for violence although I can certainly see why you would think that from my choice of words. I will say that if a full session of congress with a crap ton of corporate lobbyists got taken out by a meteor I would be more likely to cheer than shed a tear. Not because I want to see them dead, but because for me the removal of 90% of this countries problems in an instant certainly would be a silver lining. > > If you think electing Clinton to office will make things better then vote for her. I personally think that while in the short term shes not Trump in the long term she is worse. She is the candidate who will give us more of the same thing we have seen for decades, My Grandparents voted for some of the people who told us one thing and did another, My parents did the same, I have done the same, at what point do we the informed voter stop feeding the system? When do you finally stop voting for those who pander the best? Do you want your great grand children to sit around one day bitching about a government that takes their tax dollars and gives it to profitable corporations the way we do right now? When do you start to look at the long term consequences instead of fearing the short term ones? An interesting read. I disagree completely, but it’s still interesting to read such a well-articulated explanation of how you (and presumably many others) are voting in this election cycle. Is it fair to say that you’ve completely lost hope in the American political system? Have you lost hope in the Constitution? I haven’t completely lost hope and I guess I’m willing to accept incremental and marginal successes. However, as I’ve explained to my wife in recent conversations over televised election returns, I think that our constitution is increasingly outdated and ineffective in addressing our problems. The problem is, I don’t know if we’re capable of writing a new one. Not without completely disassembling the Union. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/92 "2016-05-22T12:03:50Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > But things _do_ change. Ask anyone in 1930s Germany if Nothing Really Changed after Hitler became Chancellor. (And, sadly, the analogy is probably not overblown. Even if it were, the case remains that “nothing ever really changes” was proven to be a fallacious philosophy quite decisively, by the events of 1933.) For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think Trump will be the American Hitler. But the thing is, he doesn’t have to be in order to inflict a lot of damage. If he takes us back to the times before minimum wage laws, before worker safety standards, before overtime pay, before social security, before Medicare, before unionization, before a central banking system, before civil rights laws, before protections for the disabled, and when sedition was a crime, life would be bad enough. There is a precedent for all of this in America. We’re not as far away from the past as we might think. Trump doesn’t have to have bad intentions, either. George W Bush didn’t have bad intentions. But some of his closest advisers were fanatical in their belief in using American political, financial, and military power to carry into effect a narrow and self-serving agenda. I won’t argue that GW Bush didn’t see any personal benefit as well - he most likely did. But I also think he naively wanted to believe that he was saving people from dictatorships and remaking the Middle East in a superior American model. He was oblivious to all of the dangers until it was too late. That’s the huge problem I have with Trump. I think he’s thought a lot about how to win political office but hasn’t thought much about what he’d do once he gets there. He would be heavily dependent on advisers. Sure, Obama was too but it was clear from the beginning that he would get the right kind of help. I can only wait with baited breath to see what kind of cracker jack vice president and cabinet selections loom. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/93 "2016-05-22T14:30:37Z")
I’ve learned several things about American voters this cycle. 1. Some vote inspired by their heart. The heart voters. 2. Other’s vote inspired by their head. The head voters. 3. Still other’s vote inspired by a sore ass. The butthurt voters. 4. And a few vote inspired by revenge. The F’ em, I can’t fix it, so I’ll break it more voters. Hillary seems to have mostly #1 and #2. Sanders #1, #2, #3. Trump #3 and #4. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/94 "2016-05-22T14:34:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think Trump will be the American Hitler. If there are no major terrorist attacks or attacks by hostile nations on US citizens during Trump’s terms, I’d agree. But if something awful happens, I’d fully expect Trump to go into full-on autocrat mode. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/95 "2016-05-22T14:48:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If there are no major terrorist attacks or attacks by hostile nations on US citizens during Trump’s terms, I’d agree. But if something awful happens, I’d fully expect Trump to go into full-on autocrat mode. …with the support of a pliable congress, lapdog media, and scared public. Yeah, I suppose it could happen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/96 "2016-05-22T14:57:47Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think Trump will be the American Hitler. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If there are no major terrorist attacks or attacks by hostile nations on US citizens during Trump’s terms, I’d agree. But if something awful happens, I’d fully expect Trump to go into full-on autocrat mode. Can you define what you mean by “full-on autocrat mode”. That phrase, dangling as it is sounds scary. But what does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/97 "2016-05-22T15:13:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > …with the support of a pliable congress, lapdog media, and scared public. Yeah, I suppose it could happen. [It Can’t Happen Here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/98 "2016-05-22T15:27:06Z")
Reasons to vote for Hillary Clinton? She’s smart. She’s professional. She competent. She is strong. She has a will of iron. She’s unflappable. She is not impulsive and childish. She is worldly. She is a pragmatic liberal. She understands very complex issues and her solutions for the solvable problems make actual sense. She delves into extensive policy positions. She would appoint justices to the Supreme Court who would defend the Voting Rights Act, Roe v. Wade, the ACA, and LGBT rights. She would push for money to study and fight Zika and to reimburse the Ebola funds. She would push for changes to protect family caregivers. She would further the important, massive changes in Medicare and Medicaid that have started the shift from volume to value. She would support an increase in the minimum wage. She would support making the tax system more progressive. While I will likely disagree with some of her foreign policy, I will likely agree with some other parts. And I will never feel that she’s just flailing around, getting into fights for no reason. It would be defensible, even the parts that I disdain. She would push for clean energy and environmental policies. she would defend non-Christians and other minorities. She would veto godawful Republican legislation. She would support greater investment in infrastructure. She would support the elderly and people with disabilities. She is also not Donald Trump, so her election would symbolize a rejection of anti-Muslim rhetoric, anti-immigrant rhetoric, anti-woman rhetoric, and anti-black rhetoric. Even if he otherwise governed exactly as Clinton would govern (which is a laughable hypothetical, but whatever), his rhetoric is disgusting and I can’t just ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/99 "2016-05-22T18:20:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > An interesting read. I disagree completely, but it’s still interesting to read such a well-articulated explanation of how you (and presumably many others) are voting in this election cycle. Is it fair to say that you’ve completely lost hope in the American political system? Have you lost hope in the Constitution? > > I haven’t completely lost hope and I guess I’m willing to accept incremental and marginal successes. However, as I’ve explained to my wife in recent conversations over televised election returns, I think that our constitution is increasingly outdated and ineffective in addressing our problems. The problem is, I don’t know if we’re capable of writing a new one. Not without completely disassembling the Union. Our political system has been broken for decades, This cycle has shown the public just how truly messed up it is. Trump won the Republican side in spite of rules being changed to stop him, coalitions being formed to stop him, because the Republican party wanted their guy to be the candidate not an outsider. I am actually shocked he pulled it off. On the Democrat side you have Clinton negotiating with her own party in different states to give her super delegates before the voting even started in those states…this is so far from democratic its disgusting but there she is, the democratic front runner by a huge (negotiated in advance) margin. She keeps losing states but winning delegates and what does the main stream media do? treat this behavior as business as usual. From my perspective the idea outcome this time around would have been the Republicans putting Cruz up and Trump running as an independent, and on the Democrat side Clinton going up and Sanders also running as an independent. If that had happened I think both parties would have been in for some major surprises come election day. I think the constitution is a great starting point, I think that by and large the amendments have been great. I also think its past time for some Radical changes to the way elected officials are allowed to operate and those changes should be done at the amendment level. The problem I have with the idea of incremental changes is that they really aren’t happening. We have a country run by people who vote and try to pass laws based purely on their personal beliefs. Run by people who are happy to be bribed with job offers, and willing to push a tax burden onto millions of others so long as it means a few more dollars in their own bank account at the end of the day. I also believe that Clinton is one of those people. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070/100 "2016-05-22T18:29:19Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > The problem I have with the idea of incremental changes is that they really aren’t happening. Do we have exactly the same laws as we did 50 years ago? > [@](#): > > We have a country run by people who vote and try to pass laws based purely on their personal beliefs. What specifically should be the basis of laws? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-a-bernie-supporter-are-you-willing-to-vote-for-hillary/755070.md?page=6)