If you're against the death penalty, be against the goddamned death penalty

Not so. For example, if the dude is so fucking evil he continues to try and kill people from or in Prison, I want him Dead. (Recently a dude was executed in CA who tried to arrange more murders while he was in prison). Or if he is so fucking psycho that if he escapes there’ll be a trail of dead bodies until they catch him. Why let these dudes live if we know that given any chance at all, they will kill again? We can not eliminate those chances. We can eliminate him. Better his life than the innocents he will surely kill.

OTOH, I think that in Texas, the DP is handed out far too freely. So freely that it is extremely likely that they ahve executed an innocent man or two.

I accept the DP as a nessesary evil if it will be used to stop the murderer from killing again.

Thus, I agree with Voyager to some extent.

I’m against the death penalty, because I don’t think that it saves lives. If I believed that it did save a (statistically significant) number of lives, I would change my mind. (Perhaps: the death penalty operates so dubiously in the US, that I would then have to move on to another set of considerations. There is the matter of killing those innocent of the crime of which they were convicted.)

But I part company with the OP: I make an exception in certain political cases. When civil society breaks down (or was never there to begin with) I can envision circumstances where even a prudent acting statesman would order the death of the former leader. Sure, there can be problems with creating a martyr. But there can also be compensating advantages to disrupting the former ruling junta.

Then again, there are plenty of examples of revolutions that lead to bloodbaths. But under such circumstances, one may wonder whether purist opposition to the death penalty would really be an effective barrier to atrocity.

I’m with the Op 100%. For me it’s a line in the sand. Under no circumstances should the DP be counternanced and under no circumstances will it be.

mm

/hijack

This reminds me of a great SF short story I read in a men’s magazine many years ago. It was called “We Always Have To Be Asked”.

There was a man who wanted to kill his wife and, quite unexpectedly, found a small ad in the paper that strongly hinted on being a contract killing service. So he rang the number and arranged the hit, but they asked if he wanted any other work done at the same time, as there was a discount for more than one. Surprised, he thought it over and decided that the world could live without his brother-in-law too.

Over the next few days (before the first hit was due to go off) he pondered the injustice of the world and came up with a short list of people he would also like to see discreetly rubbed out. He rang back and was amazed at how the unit cost went down as the hit-list increased. So he did some more thinking and his short list got a lot longer. And the unit price continued to plummet.

Then came the time when his personal hit list was well into three figures and it was costing absurdly little to add more names, and while he was on the phone he impulsively asked how much it would cost to kill everybody.

“Nothing,” he was told. “That service is absolutely free. But we had to be asked. We always have to be asked.”

Then the line went dead. And, seconds later, the screaming started outside.
A discount on murder. Heh.

/hijack

I agree with this, and that there are plenty of circumstances in which the death penalty is appropriate. In a society that does not have prisons, or does not have effective prisons (i.e., prisoners regularly break free), the death penalty becomes far more appropriate. If a particular prisoner has shown tremendous ingenuity at circumventing prison safeguards and is either murdering people directly (a la Mr. Lecter) or indirectly (as in the example someone gave earlier), I can definitely see the death penalty being used.

But that’s not really the case for the overwhelming majority of US executions. With the guy magellan mentioned who was arranging murders from prison, my question is why he wasn’t placed in permanent solitary confinement, treated with the same security with which we’d treat a terrorist. US prisons can be extraordinarily secure.

And when these posts come around about how somebody normally anti-DP will make an exception, they’re never making an exception for reasons of security: they’re making an exception because the person they want killed is a total douchebag. Douchebaggery is not one of the exceptions to an anti-DP position that I consider to be valid, personally.

Daniel

Agreed. Against. Always.

I am extremely ambivalent about the death penalty. I don’t think it’s a deterrent (and I can’t get my head around why people think it is) and I think the way it is carried out is inequitable, wasteful and cruel. My problem is I can’t honestly think of a suitable punishment for those who kill others. Count me in as one of the folks who thinks life imprisonment is “getting off easy” and capital punishment is state-sponsored murder.

I know prison is no picnic, so please spare me the outrage on the “getting off easy” statement.

I have been guilty of fits of outrage which have made me the anonymous hypocrite the OP talks about - maybe I’ve even done it on here, I don’t remember.

And in calmer moments, I recognise that that’s a good reason why we have the rule of law, and hopefully not lynch mobs. I am opposed to the death penalty. Saddam Hussein should be alive. The guy that roasts babies should be alive. And so on. If, heaven forbid, a loved one of mine were murdered, I’d want the death penalty. But ask me again ten years later, and I might not. It would just mean another grieving family.

I have been the guy in the OP, but I do try my darnedest not to be.

There’s a lot of stuff that I could respond to in this thread, but I’m just going to say “me too” to the OP.

How does your post show a disagreement with magellan01? magellan01 says you’re either for it against it. From your post, you’re for it, provided it’s used for the clearest/worst cases. That doesn’t disprove magellan01’s statement.

It is at it’s base illogical. It is wrong to kill people. If you do ,we will kill you. Something does not compute.
Deterrance …nope.
Closure… I do not know. We all see times when someone whose relative has been killed argue against the death penalty. Revenge and closure apparenly are not universal. Some say it provides it .Others say it doesn’t.
The state should be above it. Plus how many innocent people have been executed. ?

Megadittoes. The fact that I wouldn’t be able to think clearly and objectively about the situation is exactly what disqualifies me from determining the perpetrator’s fate.

Not even Antonin Scalia is in favor of the death penalty in more than 0.01% of criminal cases. Being in favor of the death penalty means being in favor of having it available as a punishment. If you’re opposed to the death penalty, you don’t think it should available as a punishment.

Funny, I never saw that contradiction, any more than the regrettable but necessary act of euthanizing rabid animals. There’s an uncontrollable element in one’s environment, capable of causing random death and destruction and it is eliminated using controlled death and destruction. It’s unfortunate but may be necessary.

Or at least that’s how it would work ideally. To extend the analogy, it’s as though tests for rabies took years (or decades) and there was a large body of anti-euthanasia activists challenging the tests (which are known to have some flaws, occasionally generating false positives) and demanding more tests and tests for the tests… and it turns out to be less hassle to lock the rabid animals up in a warehouse until they die naturally.

I’m the reverse of the coin,I’m all for the death penalty on a moral basis but on a practical basis too many people in the past have ben executed and found to have been innocent of the crime at a later date.

You’ll see somewhat the same sentiment from somewhat the same people, similarly espousing a concern for the value of human life, regarding abortion. No, they say, a fetus is a human being, nobody has a right to kill it, ever. Except in cases of rape or incest.

But we never hear why those exceptions are permitted. Does the context of the conception make the fetus any less human, any less deserving of life? Or does it simply reflect an acknowledgment that there are circumstances in which the woman does indeed have a right to choose? And then there’s the exception about the mother’s life or even health being in danger - does one human’s health overrule another one’s very life? Can anyone explain why allowing exceptions to an abortion ban is any different from accepting the right to choose?

To largely the same people whose hypocrisy regarding the sanctity of life jsgoddess is exposing in regard to the death penalty: If you think abortion is murder, be against it, dammit. No exceptions there either, not if you’re claiming to support a moral principle. And go take care of that log while you’re at it.

Cite? None in the last few decades, AFAIK. There have been some where new evidence has come in which would have made it unlikely the jury would have voted to convict, which is not the same as being innocent. There are several cases with serious procedural errors and some rather doubtful cases. But none where the executed man was found innocent.

I can think of one case in Texas where a man was convicted and executed for killing his own kids due to expert “scientific” testimony that "proved’ it had to be arson. Later scientific advances has shown the expert was wrong. Thus, it wasn’t arson, thus it wasn’t murder. But even there, some dudes disagree.

I understand that, “Since 1973, 123 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. The most recent exoneration is of John Ballard of Florida on 2/23/2006”.

So the system is working, right? Er, no. According to a 1997 study, Many of these cases were discovered not because of the normal appeals process, but rather as a result of new scientific techniques, investigations by journalists, and the dedicated work of expert attorneys, not available to the typical death row inmate.

Measure for Measure, I don’t wish to appear in your face, here - the statistic you’ve brought up is scary, and damning.

But I wonder, do you believe that death penalty cases are more or less likely to be overturned because of such errors, compared to regular life in prison cases? Whether you think the appeals process, and other protections surrounding death penalty cases work as well as they should, they are much more extravagant than the protections people facing simply life in prison get. And my gut feeling is that if one were wrongfully accused, and sentenced for a crime one did not commit, there’s still a greater chance that in the case of a death penalty case, the truth will come out, than for someone mouldering in jail for the rest of their life without parole.

I think that’s what keeps the errors in the judicial system with respect to death penalty cases from being a convincing argument against the death penalty for me. Unless the protections for death penalty cases are extended to all cases where someone might face life in prison, I don’t see that destroying someone’s life because of a judicial mistake is any better or worse if that destruction happens after twenty years on death row, followed by an execution, or after living a long fifty years in custody, then dying a natural death. In both cases an innocent has had their life and liberty taken from them unjustly. Both are travesties. If you honestly believe it’s acceptable to have people incarcerated for the rest of their lives for crimes they can’t be proven to have committed, that it’s better than killing them outright, I can’t argue your premises. I don’t entirely agree, but it’s a position I can’t say is wrong, either. I guess what I’m trying to say is that no matter what the degree of jeopardy for an accused, there’s always going to be an error rate within the courts, even assuming everyone involved is honest, competent, and doing their best. (Which I know is a sometimes generous assumption.)

The statistic I’ve heard for death penalty cases is that approximately one in seven such sentences will be overturned on appeal, often leaving the public at serious doubt as to the person’s guilt at all for the crime they’d been accused of. But if that’s the case with the death penalty, can you convince me, given the protections that death penalty defenders have, that I shouldn’t believe that at least that fraction of people who are jailed for lesser sentences that shouldn’t have been?

I remain of the opinion that the way to deal with the problem isn’t to eliminate the death penalty, but rather to work to improve the protections in the judicial system as a whole. But that’s going to be more expensive, too. Morally I think it’s a no-brainer concept. But it’s hard to get the public to accept such an expense. And even harder when the effect that the public will see is, by definition, a reduction in convictions at trial. For the most part, it seems to me that the public doesn’t care why John Doe has had his conviction overturned - it’s always the appeals court’s fault. Unless it’s something so egregious, such as bribery or the like, on the part of the prosecuting attorney. With DAs being elected officials, maintaining a high conviction rate is vitally important to them. Overturns on appeal are nowhere near as important in the public perception game. (Though such does affect the attorney’s professional reputation, AIUI.) Right now, I do believe that we have a system where DAs, especially in high profile cases, will prefer to get a flawed conviction, even if they know it will be overturned on appeal, because it demonstrates their comittment to “Law and Order.” And that’s an attitude that I think helps to put a large number of people into jail whom really shouldn’t have been adjudged guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, at all levels of the penal system, not simply at the death penalty level.

Unless we can correct that bias, I beleive that simply removing the death penalty will only have the effect of making sure that no innocent persons are executed. It will do nothing, necessarily, to prevent the same innocent from being tossed into jail for the rest of their lives. And with a lesser likelihood of having their erronious conviction overturned, than if they’d been on death row. As your links prove, there are a number of very competent people who care enough about the morality of the death penalty to try to make sure no one who is innocent is killed. I’m not convinced that there’s the same institutionalized concern for lifers. (I’m aware that the Innocence Project does do work on cases that don’t need to involve the death penalty, but most of the judicial watchdog groups I’m aware of seem focused solely on inmates facing the death penalty. And I fear that funding for those groups would dry up without the percieved threat of execution.

Yes there is and should be concern for lifers (NZ has no death penalty but look up the David Bain-Privvy counsel case sometime).

Is your arguement …it is better to be dead then in prison? If that is your arguement then I agree to a point (the point being I don’t want to go there ever and LIFE means not DEAD!). Prison is the punishment, it also the way back…rehabilitation anyone?

Death is only a revenge punishment. If your arguement supporting the death penalty is “the innocent will get chop because nobody will be interested in life in prison” then you are WHY the death penalty exists.

The death penalty should not exist because it is inhumane!

We demonstrate our humanity by NOT delving to the lowest level. We show our humanity by being BETTER then those who prey on us.

I will not punish you for having killed someone with your death but with your prolonged regret for that death.