# If you're not safe in/around your house, where the fuck are you safe???? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235 "2004-05-26T20:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/21 "2004-05-27T16:20:40Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > Not meant as a swipe at anyone, but I find it interesting that so many people, even the first two responders, have said that a gun was the best choice for self-protection in this case. > > Not a knife. Not pepper spray. Not pointed sticks (shut up! 😉 ). Not even a self-defense class. A _gun_. When it comes to protecting my safety and liberties, why should I settle for inferior tools? I want the best. For self-protection I rely on a **Glock G23**. For home protection I rely on a **12-gage shotgun**. For protecting my liberties I rely on a **FAL .308 semi-automatic assault weapon**. If you have suggestions on better tools to purchase, I’m all ears. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carimwc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac8455/32.png) [@carimwc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carimwc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/22 "2004-05-27T16:36:07Z")
Del Ray is a neighborhood in Alexandria, VA. The girl was attacked in Lorton/Woodbridge area. She did not know her attacker. Our theory is that the house may have been targeted because of its occupants, an elderly couple and 3 youngish females. It’s not a neighborhood known for its violence. I don’t know any more details though. I haven’t heard from her mother today. I don’t think her problems will be solved by having a gun. I don’t think that’s a theory her family subscribes to anyway. **crafter\_man** , I’m sorry you think it’s irresponsible to not have a gun. I do not have one, nor do I ever plan to own one. I don’t like guns. I see no reason to have a gun other than for hunting and pure recreation. It’s sad that no one is really safe anywhere and where the most common solution seems to be buy a gun. Solving violence with violence is _always_ the answer. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/23 "2004-05-27T17:38:50Z")
> [@carimwc](#): > > I don’t think her problems will be solved by having a gun. I agree. In addition to having a gun, she would have needed _many_ hours of training by a qualified self-defense instructor. > [@carimwc](#): > > **crafter\_man** , I’m sorry you think it’s irresponsible to not have a gun. I do not have one, nor do I ever plan to own one. I don’t like guns. I see no reason to have a gun other than for hunting and pure recreation. That’s certainly your prerogative. I refuse to be a victim, and equip myself with the best tools I can afford. I’m just pleased to see you respect my choice (and my right) to carry a gun. > [@carimwc](#): > > **crafter\_man** It’s sad that no one is really safe anywhere and where the most common solution seems to be buy a gun. Solving violence with violence is _always_ the answer. :rolleyes: The hard reality is that violence is sometimes the _ **best** _ response. Many good people have resorted to violence while defending themselves. And prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/24 "2004-05-27T18:47:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m with GuanoLad in believing that, based on the very little I know about this particular situation, it looks like a gun wouldn’t’ve helped at all. That’s a pretty dismissive belief you guys have developed from a damned scanty set of facts. On what are you basing it? There’s no mention of any interval of time between her seeing the assailanty and the initiation of the attack in which the woman could have brandished a firearm had one been immediately available. No mention of whether the guy snuck up from behind her, or confronted her face-to-face. Plus, she _was_ able to get to her phone. And if she can get to the phone, she can get to a gun. That, and that alone, would have prevented this guy from continuing his attack, had he been so inclined. There’s no mention of what caused him to desist. The cops would certainly have been of no use; this woman lives in a “semi-isolated” area. The whole thing, the rape and the murder of this woman, could easily have been over before the cops arrived. A person is ultimately responsible for their own safety, and in this case, a handgun would have afforded the greatest safety. > [@](#): > > Our theory is that the house may have been targeted because of its occupants, an elderly couple and 3 youngish females. If one reasonably thinks that one might become a target, then one should prepare against that eventuality. As Crafter\_Man says, failure to do so can be seen as irresponsible. > [@](#): > > It’s sad that no one is really safe anywhere and where the most common solution seems to be buy a gun. Solving violence with violence is always the answer. Yes, it is. But honest and peaceful, law-abiding people need to prepared for those who would take advantage. And the thing to remember is that you’re merely meeting force with force. Defending onself is not a violent act. To do violence one must have destructive, coercive and malicious intent. Defending oneself from a beating with a tire iron (and worse) has none of these qualities. Let’s check our dictionaries: _Violence - noun_ • Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing. • Abusive or unjust exercise of power. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/25 "2004-05-27T19:14:27Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > No mention of whether the guy snuck up from behind her, or confronted her face-to-face. Maybe it’s just me and hopefully the OP will clarify, but I read this: > [@carimwc](#): > > She’s got stiches and staples from the base of her skull to her forehead. as meaning she was attacked from behind. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/26 "2004-05-27T19:16:17Z")
Glad to see we’re in agreement here, Unclebeer. When do ya want to go shooting? 😉 > [@UncleBeer](#): > > Let’s check our dictionaries: > _Violence - noun_ > • Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing. > • Abusive or unjust exercise of power. This is interesting. I never knew the word _violence_ was defined as being an _immoral_ act. Assuming this is true, I’ll have to reword my responses to self defense from now on. (I thought the word “violence” only referred to a harsh physical act perpetrated against an unsuspecting person. Thus my comment on using violence against violence. But if violence is, by definition, immoral, then it will need to be reworded…) ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/27 "2004-05-27T19:35:37Z")
is she allowed to own a handgun under 21? from what we know she was probably ambushed. a gun in this case will only serve to arm the assailant. (unless she was taught to be especially conscious of her surroundings in such situations together with her gun training.) imho, the best thing to do is to catch every single low life scum like these and make each of them pay. a town with a high ‘solved crime percentage’ will deter more than any thought of a house of armed elderly and children. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/28 "2004-05-27T19:41:40Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > from what we know she was probably ambushed. a gun in this case will only serve to arm the assailant. (unless she was taught to be especially conscious of her surroundings in such situations together with her gun training.) That’s nothing more than supposition. As **UncleBeer** said, if she could get to her phone and use it she could get to her gun and use it in whatever way necessary. A gun is easier to get into action than a phone anyway. > [@](#): > > a town with a high ‘solved crime percentage’ will deter more than any thought of a house of armed elderly and children. And that’s just fantasy. Violent criminials aren’t frightened by statistics if they’re even aware of them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/29 "2004-05-27T19:50:54Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > is she allowed to own a handgun under 21? Unfortunately, she would not have been able to purchase one, but I think she could have possessed one. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/30 "2004-05-27T19:52:28Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Maybe it’s just me and hopefully the OP will clarify, but I read this: > > as meaning she was attacked from behind. Or maybe she was clobbered as she was trying to run away from the asshole. You’re reading things into the OP that just ain’t there. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/31 "2004-05-27T19:59:44Z")
> [@BF](#): > > "Unfortunately, she would not have been able to purchase one, but I think she could have possessed one. That’s correct. Here’s a summary of the relevant Virginia statute as given by the NRA: > [@](#): > > A person under 18 shall not possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm. This prohibition does not apply to a minor in his own home or on his property or on the property of another with prior permission, while accompanied by an adult while hunting, at a range or firearm educational class, and while transporting an unloaded firearm to and from such activities. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/32 "2004-05-27T20:05:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Glad to see we’re in agreement here, Unclebeer. When do ya want to go shooting? You’re not _too_ far from me. Maybe we can arrange that sometime this summer. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/33 "2004-05-27T20:14:54Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > When it comes to protecting my safety and liberties, why should I settle for inferior tools? I want the best. For self-protection I rely on a **Glock G23**. For home protection I rely on a **12-gage shotgun**. For protecting my liberties I rely on a **FAL .308 semi-automatic assault weapon**. > > If you have suggestions on better tools to purchase, I’m all ears. 🙂 Well, you have what works for you. I (and several others here) am merely suggesting it might not be the best choice _for her_. Curious, do you carry that Glock on you 24/7? Sleep with it under your pillow? Otherwise, how can you be assured of your safety? And what does “protecting your liberties” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/34 "2004-05-27T20:50:19Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > Curious, do you carry that Glock on you 24/7? Sleep with it under your pillow? Otherwise, how can you be assured of your safety? I carry it frequently. But you can never really be 100% assured of your safety. You can only increase the odds. > [@av8rmike](#): > > And what does “protecting your liberties” mean? It means protecting my rights & liberties against anyone or anything who is trying to take them from me. Fighting tyranny, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/35 "2004-05-27T21:23:20Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > Curious, do you carry that Glock on you 24/7? Sleep with it under your pillow? Otherwise, how can you be assured of your safety? Unless I am at a military installation, a school, or another state, my pistol is never more than five steps away from me. You’d be amazed at how many people don’t know you’re wearing a pistol and think you’re cool but immediately gasp and run for their lives when they find out that you’ve been wearing a handgun in their presence on countless occasions. I guess they think that that makes me a psycho, although that is directly contradicted by the fact that they’re still alive. A gun is no big deal. It’s not the Bogeyman. It’s an instrument of self-defense. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/36 "2004-05-27T21:31:14Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You’re not _too_ far from me. Maybe we can arrange that sometime this summer. You’re up by Toledo? I’m probably about 2 to 2.5 hours away. I have a range set up beside the house. Later in the year (September?) I’ll be having a get-together for Ohio members of another forum I frequent ([www.frugalsquirrels.com/](http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/)). It will be an overnight thing. We’ll be doing lots of shooting during the day. At night we’ll be camping & drinking beer. Would be great if you could make it. My email address is [magcraft@main-net.com](mailto:magcraft@main-net.com) ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/37 "2004-05-27T22:01:02Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > That’s a pretty dismissive belief you guys have developed from a damned scanty set of facts. On what are you basing it? There’s no mention of any interval of time between her seeing the assailanty and the initiation of the attack in which the woman could have brandished a firearm had one been immediately available. No mention of whether the guy snuck up from behind her, or confronted her face-to-face. Not at all a “pretty dismissive” belief. It was quite clearly admitted that the information from the OP was limited. But here you go: > [@carimwc](#): > > The fucker had to be waiting for something. Who waits around with a tire iron? At 4 AM? She was just getting out of her car to go inside. It’s an assumption, yes, but if you’re waiting around in the dark of night, does it not stand to reason that you’re hoping for surprise? Plus, the OP clearly states that she was “just” getting out of her car. That right there is a time element. If she’d seen the assailant and been expecting danger, don’t you think she would’ve stayed in the car and driven away? > [@UncleBeer](#): > > Plus, she _was_ able to get to her phone. And if she can get to the phone, she can get to a gun. A gun inside the house, yes, but maybe he’d already run off by that point. As you said, no mention of that. And maybe if she’d been carrying a gun on her person, it would’ve been used against her. Bunches of ifs on my part, recognized and acknowledged, but there are a few ifs on your part, most especially this: > [@](#): > > …in this case, a handgun would have afforded the greatest safety. which is no more supported by the OP than my own speculation. You might very well be right here, I admit, but it doesn’t look that way to me. My point in all of this was never to say that guns are always the wrong choice, just that guns are sometimes the wrong choice. As was pointed out by **av8rmike** , a whole lotta people in this thread are recommending guns, guns, guns. Well, guns aren’t always appropriate, and when they’re not appropriate, they most certainly are not the greatest guarantee of safety. I hope this girl recovers psychologically from this terrible event, and then I hope she does everything she can to feel and to be secure. If that means carrying a gun, more power to her. If not, though, then people like you who carry guns should wish her luck with whatever she chooses, and stop poopooing the choice of others when they decide that guns aren’t for them. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/38 "2004-05-27T22:31:16Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > When she turns 21, tell her to get a gun and shooting lessons. If a police officer or state trooper can be shot with his or her own weapon, certainly a ‘very quiet, polite girl’ can. And just because you can shoot a gun well doesn’t mean you can shoot a person, right? If a person freezes up and/or loses posession of a gun to their assailant they’re worse than fucked, not to mention the possible subsequent shootings and mayhem in the community with said gun. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/39 "2004-05-27T22:33:15Z")
Well, we’re all spectating speculators to the situation from here in front of our computer screens. The reality is that even if she would have been armed to the teeth, without the proper training, every handgun, long gun, cannon, etc. would have been useless unless the victim had been trained under stress conditions, similar to those that existed when/where she was attacked. If she managed to break free of the attacker, and THEN filled him full of lead, she’d be subject to charges since the threat had already subsided. Guns, like it or not, are a LAST RESORT. I have a closet full of ammo and a room full of guns, and at best they’re a last ditch effort to save your skin. Granted, if some unfortunate bastard decided to break into my house, he’d be in a real, shall we say, tight spot. Still, I’m a trained and field tested operator, and I’d doubt the victim is. Your hands are your first line of defense. Stun guns or tasers, pepper spray, and clubs or bats, are the second. Guns are the third and final step to take, courts have upheld this use of force continuum time and time again, and as much as it might suck, it’s reality. As a private citizen, you are able to react only with the force equal to the force you meet. Meaning you can’t shoot a man who’s wielding a menacing looking q-tip. You can however, push him away, (and so on, and so on). It does indeed suck that we’re not safe anywhere, but safety is a subjective thing. For instance, the obviously ridiculous example that rjung uses about an aircraft engine landing on your head. That’s more of an irony than a reality, and the truth is that you’re several times more likely to have your house broken into than to have a freaking airplane engine dropped on your head. So it’s certianly better to tip the odds in your favor with the appropriate appliances, however they’re utterly useless unless you’re proprerly trained in not only their use, but behaviour while in use. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/40 "2004-05-27T22:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **buttonjockey308** said: > If she managed to break free of the attacker, and THEN filled him full of lead, she’d be subject to charges since the threat had already subsided. Not according to the Washington County Sheriff’s Department in Pennsylvania. If you manage to break the grip of someone armed with a lethal weapon, that person is still armed and still a threat. > [@](#): > > Your hands are your first line of defense. Stun guns or tasers, pepper spray, and clubs or bats, are the second. Guns are the third and final step to take, courts have upheld this use of force continuum time and time again, and as much as it might suck, it’s reality. As a private citizen, you are able to react only with the force equal to the force you meet. Meaning you can’t shoot a man who’s wielding a menacing looking q-tip. You can however, push him away, (and so on, and so on). Again, not what I was taught in my licensing process. I was taught that you don’t have the kind of time to try 85 different tools during one attack, and that so long as you are in _reasonable fear for your life or the life of someone else_, you are justified in a decision to use deadly force. I was also told flat out by the county sheriff that the only words he’d ever want to hear out of the mouth of someone who shot an attacker are ‘I feared for my life.’ > [@](#): > > Still, I’m a trained and field tested operator, and I’d doubt the victim is. I’m just a regular, private citizen who got a gun for herself as her 21st birthday present and then learned how to use it. Until the night some crackhead broke into my home, you could’ve said I’d have no idea how I’d react in a stress situation like that, that I might’ve ‘froze’. In actuality, I did everything I had practiced, and nobody (most importantly me) got hurt in the process. So, regular people without military or law enforcement experience can’t completely be discounted as being able to effectively defend themselves. I might be just one example, which doesn’t make for proof, but there are (depending on whose numbers you use) anywhere between 200,000 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses in the US every year. Not all of those are being done buy LEOs and military personnel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235.md?page=3)