# If you're not safe in/around your house, where the fuck are you safe???? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235 "2004-05-26T20:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/41 "2004-05-27T23:10:34Z")
No one in this thread has said “buy a gun and all your problems will be solved.” No one. People are advocating a handgun as a prudent personal saftey measure, which seems to me to be good advice for someone living in a “remote, isolated” area, especially if there’s been a violent criminal attack. Those same people are also stressing the importance of _training_ in defensive handgun use. A hammer isn’t any use if you don’t know how to use it properly, and neither is a gun. You have to educate yourself, get training from competent instructors, and practice. A lot. Nobody said “buy a gun, stick it in your purse, and forget about it, and you’ll be safe.” Finally, anybody who says “don’t get a gun because it will most likely be taken away and used against you” doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about and can be safely ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/42 "2004-05-27T23:44:14Z")
> [@Stricker van Gogh](#): > > guns are sometimes the wrong choice. As was pointed out by **av8rmike** , a whole lotta people in this thread are recommending guns, guns, guns. Well, guns aren’t always appropriate, and when they’re not appropriate, they most certainly are not the greatest guarantee of safety. It would appear you’re alluding to a general purpose self-defense tool that is _ **better** _ than a gun. What tool are you referring to? I’m dying to know. I must get one. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/43 "2004-05-28T00:13:01Z")
> [@mack](#): > > And just because you can shoot a gun well doesn’t mean you can shoot a person, right? If a person freezes up and/or loses posession of a gun to their assailant they’re worse than fucked, not to mention the possible subsequent shootings and mayhem in the community with said gun. If someone feels the need to pull out a gun and point it at someone, they’re already fucked, since that is an absolute last resort. Losing the gun could not possibly make them any more fucked than they already are. If you could, could you provide me with some sort of cite on the frequency of use of a gun that was stolen from a victim of an attack, please? I’m not saying that it never happens, I’m just not sure it happens with the alarming frequency that the “what-if scenario” people would like us to believe. I know this is a touchy subject with some of you, and I certainly didn’t intend for this to become another fruitless gun debate, but we can be reasonable. Reasonableness begins with reasonable arguments, not “what if the man-whore transsexual former President of the NOW were raped by werewolves under a quarter moon on the 5th of April 2035…that would be conclusive proof of the evilness of guns!”, because those “what-if” scenarios are always contrived to the extent of being outright torturous sometimes (just like this sentence). You want to argue guns? Statistics, statistics, statistics, even personal anecdotes will do, but contrived scenarios will not do. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/44 "2004-05-28T00:16:18Z")
Well said, **Exgineer**. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/45 "2004-05-28T00:19:50Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It would appear you’re alluding to a general purpose self-defense tool that is _ **better** _ than a gun. What tool are you referring to? I’m dying to know. I must get one. A freeze-ray. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/46 "2004-05-28T00:38:00Z")
buttonjockey308 said: If she managed to break free of the attacker, and THEN filled him full of lead, she’d be subject to charges since the threat had already subsided. Not according to the Washington County Sheriff’s Department in Pennsylvania. If you manage to break the grip of someone armed with a lethal weapon, that person is still armed and still a threat. \*\* Agreed, however in the OP, it was made fairly clear that the victim was in the house and able to use the telephone, thereby removing the threat\*\* Quote: Your hands are your first line of defense. Stun guns or tasers, pepper spray, and clubs or bats, are the second. Guns are the third and final step to take, courts have upheld this use of force continuum time and time again, and as much as it might suck, it’s reality. As a private citizen, you are able to react only with the force equal to the force you meet. Meaning you can’t shoot a man who’s wielding a menacing looking q-tip. You can however, push him away, (and so on, and so on). Again, not what I was taught in my licensing process. I was taught that you don’t have the kind of time to try 85 different tools during one attack, and that so long as you are in reasonable fear for your life or the life of someone else, you are justified in a decision to use deadly force. \*\* And your instructor was absolutely correct, except. Your instructor isn’t going to pay for your lawyers fees and legal bills. Not that that should keep you from defending yourself, but it’s something every single gun owner had best address. Moreover, if a courtr of competent jurisdiction finds that you in fact were NOT defending your life (i.e joe bad guy was slinking out of your window with your television) then you’re phucked. \*\* I was also told flat out by the county sheriff that the only words he’d ever want to hear out of the mouth of someone who shot an attacker are ‘I feared for my life.’ \*\* Indeed, those are catch phrases worthy of the ‘get out of jail free’ card on your monopoly board, and may indeed keep you out of general population, but the civil court system is far less forgiving to gun owners, and if the family of the bad guy sues, you’d best be ready for that\*\* Quote: Still, I’m a trained and field tested operator, and I’d doubt the victim is. I’m just a regular, private citizen who got a gun for herself as her 21st birthday present and then learned how to use it. Until the night some crackhead broke into my home, you could’ve said I’d have no idea how I’d react in a stress situation like that, that I might’ve ‘froze’. In actuality, I did everything I had practiced, and nobody (most importantly me) got hurt in the process. So, regular people without military or law enforcement experience can’t completely be discounted as being able to effectively defend themselves. I might be just one example, which doesn’t make for proof, but there are (depending on whose numbers you use) anywhere between 200,000 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses in the US every year. Not all of those are being done buy LEOs and military personnel. \*\* We agree here as well. The crux of my post was train, train, train. That gun may as well be a blender in the hands of someone unable, on rote, to do what’s necessary to stop the threat on their lives. I’m glad your situation turned out in your favor, and I’m glad you didn’t freeze or panic. Sadly though, that’s exactly what many people do, and the fear that that precise thing may happen, is a valid one. That said; It’s false to believe you’re just as safe without a gun. It’s false to assume that the police are there to protect you. We’re a reactionary force that sweeps up the mess after the crimes have been committed. Sometimes we get there while things are in progress, sometimes not, in any case, a gun and proper training, may just be all that stands between you, and dead. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/47 "2004-05-28T00:46:50Z")
> [@BF](#): > > Well said, **Exgineer**. Thank you, sir. By the way, I consider my father and (late) grandfather to be “competent instructors,” but I didn’t stop with them. You just can’t learn too much, or practice too often. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/48 "2004-05-28T00:56:04Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > If someone feels the need to pull out a gun and point it at someone, they’re already fucked, since that is an absolute last resort. I’m curious why this would necessarily be the case, that feeling threatened enough to pull a gun is necessarily indicative of a “last resort situation.” I’m not sure how I can explain why I’m confused by this sentiment (may have something to do with many peoples’ tendency to overreaction), but it strikes me as incorrect somehow. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/49 "2004-05-28T00:57:44Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > People are advocating a handgun as a prudent personal saftey measure, which seems to me to be good advice for someone living in a “remote, isolated” area, especially if there’s been a violent criminal attack. I think I advocate leaving the country - if it is so dangerous that you need to carry a gun with you most of the time, you need to get out of the country! Move to somewhere where there are less guns in circulation. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/50 "2004-05-28T01:02:10Z")
I’ll confess that I didn’t quite get that either. The general rule is “don’t pull the gun unless you’re willing to shoot.” I figured that **Airman** was saying just that, more or less, but it just didn’t seem right somehow. Frankly, if I’m getting whacked in the head with a tire iron I’m pretty willing. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/51 "2004-05-28T01:05:21Z")
That last post was intended to be a reply to **Leaper**. As for **MelCthefirst** , just cram it. You don’t live in Utopia either. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/52 "2004-05-28T01:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > buttonjockey\*\* said: > And your instructor was absolutely correct, except. Your instructor isn’t going to pay for your lawyers fees and legal bills. Not that that should keep you from defending yourself, but it’s something every single gun owner had best address. Moreover, if a courtr of competent jurisdiction finds that you in fact were NOT defending your life (i.e joe bad guy was slinking out of your window with your television) then you’re phucked. All in all, this is a chance that I’m willing to take. > [@](#): > > Indeed, those are catch phrases worthy of the ‘get out of jail free’ card on your monopoly board, and may indeed keep you out of general population, but the civil court system is far less forgiving to gun owners, and if the family of the bad guy sues, you’d best be ready for that Again, a risk that I am perfectly willing to take if it means my life. > [@](#): > > That said; It’s false to believe you’re just as safe without a gun. It’s false to assume that the police are there to protect you. We’re a reactionary force that sweeps up the mess after the crimes have been committed. Sometimes we get there while things are in progress, sometimes not, in any case, a gun and proper training, may just be all that stands between you, and dead. I’ve read many times that during the LA riots after the King verdict, citizens whose homes and businesses were being looted called police only to be told that they were on their own. It really is the case that the police have no actual legal duty to protect individual citizens from crimes, including preventing them from being killed. > [@](#): > > **Leaper** said: > I’m curious why this would necessarily be the case, that feeling threatened enough to pull a gun is necessarily indicative of a “last resort situation.” I’m not sure how I can explain why I’m confused by this sentiment (may have something to do with many peoples’ tendency to overreaction), but it strikes me as incorrect somehow. As was explained to me in the training I did, the decision to draw your firearm is the decision to use lethal force, and should not be done unless you are in a situation in which you are in fear for the life of yourself or another person. There is no other reason, ever, to draw your firearm on someone. In other words, you had better believe fully that not drawing your firearm will result in death. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/53 "2004-05-28T01:12:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, but your post talked about guns. Guns are scary. \Math is hard!\ ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/54 "2004-05-28T01:43:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It would appear you’re alluding to a general purpose self-defense tool that is _ **better** _ than a gun. What tool are you referring to? I’m dying to know. I must get one. Well, no, I haven’t been referring to anything “better”, per se. For some people, I’m sure that a gun is the absolute best tool available. For someone like me, though? I consider the dangers of a gun a little too steep to be comfortable around them. That might not jive with actual statistics, but then again, I don’t give a damn about the numbers when the only personal experience I’ve had with gun death has been tragedy and not self defense. So I go the self defense training route. More time intensive, yeah, but it fits me. If you’ve been thinking about martial arts, I highly recommend it. Maybe you’ve already done that, but if you haven’t, and you’ve got the time, it’s worth checking out. And there are still other reasonable precautions people can take if they are, for whatever reason, unwilling to use guns. Simply going over this thread once more will give several examples. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/55 "2004-05-28T01:49:42Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > That last post was intended to be a reply to **Leaper**. > > As for **MelCthefirst** , just cram it. You don’t live in Utopia either. I never said I did. I said move somewhere where there are less guns in circulation. I cannot fathom having a lifestyle that required me to carry a gun most of the time. Many South Africans have come to live here or Australia (probably other place too) in the last 7 or 8 years and from those I have spoken with, it is because of the violence in South Africa. One guy I went out with told me he carried a handgun under his shirt every day. Is this where the US is headed? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/56 "2004-05-28T01:52:47Z")
Considering that this young lady was attacked with a tire iron, I don’t think it’s the amount of guns in circulation that’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/57 "2004-05-28T01:56:33Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Considering that this young lady was attacked with a tire iron, I don’t think it’s the amount of guns in circulation that’s the problem. Agree, for this particular case, however guns are being put forward as the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/58 "2004-05-28T02:03:47Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > I never said I did. I said move somewhere where there are less guns in circulation. I cannot fathom having a lifestyle that required me to carry a gun most of the time. Many South Africans have come to live here or Australia (probably other place too) in the last 7 or 8 years and from those I have spoken with, it is because of the violence in South Africa. One guy I went out with told me he carried a handgun under his shirt every day. Is this where the US is headed? I don’t own a handgun. I don’t feel that I need one, and I don’t find pistol shooting all that interesting. I like skeet, which requires a shotgun. For your information, America isn’t some lawless, dangerous place where you stand a good chance of being murdered every other day. All I’m saying is that if you live in a “remote, isolated” area, and have been attacked by a violent criminal, it might be prudent to look into a little self-protection. For the record, I could never live in New Zealand so I guess we’re even. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/59 "2004-05-28T02:22:14Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > For your information, America isn’t some lawless, dangerous place where you stand a good chance of being murdered every other day. If this is the case (and I have been to States a number of times and felt safe most of the time) why would people be advocating carrying a gun all times? > [@Exgineer](#): > > For the record, I could never live in New Zealand so I guess we’re even. I didn’t know we weren’t even? What are you on about? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235/60 "2004-05-28T02:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > **MelCthefirst** said: > Agree, for this particular case, however guns are being put forward as the answer. No, as several other posters have already tried to explain to you, having a firearm and being trained in how to use it as a defensive tool is one possible way to protect oneself from dangerous criminal sorts with tire irons. No single solution is the be-all, end-all way to protect yourself, and none of them make a person invincible, as several other posters have already pointed out. Please grasp your shoulders firmly and pull your head from your ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-not-safe-in-around-your-house-where-the-fuck-are-you-safe/247235.md?page=4)