# If you're too dumb to figure out this form you shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2000, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385 "2000-11-08T23:32:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TampaFlyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@TampaFlyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TampaFlyer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/61 "2000-11-10T23:36:59Z")
\> Several people are filing suit on the issue of this ballot, saying that the ballot design was illegal–apparently, Florida statutes forbid a two-page ballot; this was a two-page ballot. Seems pretty clear to me. Well, you’re just wrong! The ballot design was legal. A sample ballot is mailed to all voters a few weeks before the election, & I would assume that the political parties would examine the ballot to make sure their candidates are listed correctly and so on. Nobody complained about the design of the ballot. As already stated, that part of the ballot was printed on two pages so larger type could be used to make it easier to read. (In my county we obviously had the same Presidential choices, but they were listed on one page. More facts: Buchanan was labeled under the Reform Party in FL. There were about a dozen Presidential candidates on the ballot. I don’t recall any of them listed under an Independent or Independence Party. I know there’s a party of that name in some other states. FL law allows the voter to request another ballot if he makes a mistake and so requests before putting the first one in the box. You cannot come back days later for another ballot! The “mistake” ballots are kept so they can be accounted for, but of course are not part of the official vote count. FL law states that if a ballot has votes indicated for more than one Presidential candidate, that ballot goes in the reject pile, because you can only vote for one ticket. FL law requires a recount when the margin of victory is this close. That’s what started this whole thing. The Palm Beach County situation had nothing to do with it. (Isn’t that a good thing to recount when it’s very close!) FL law requires the Presidential candidate whose party is the same of the current governor to be listed first. No person decided to list Bush first. The other of the big 2 parties is listed next, & I’m not sure how the rest are determined. Harry Browne was the third choice on my ballot. It was definitely not alphabetical by candidate or party name. Maybe the order (calendar date) in which they qualified for the ballot? Re: complaints about translators. What is the Haitian word for Gore or Bush? How much English do you need to know to recognize a person’s name and follow an arrow and punch a hole? (Certainly no more than you’d need to function in society.) Last, I’m really getting tired of hearing that FL decides the election. Our votes do not count any more than those from other states! The order in which the votes are counted does not matter. You may recall from algebra class that a+b+c = b+c+a = c+a+b etc. If Gore had won his home state, we wouldn’t be having this chat. Or if Bush had won CA, or any other of many possibilities. There are several other states where the vote was close, so you could pick any one of them as being “the one”. Since the national vote was so close, it’s no surprise that the vote within FL is close. We have people from all over the country here, every demographic group you can imagine. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/62 "2000-11-11T01:04:51Z")
TampaFlyer said: > [@](#): > > \> Several people are filing suit on the issue of this ballot, saying that the ballot design was illegal–apparently, Florida statutes forbid a two-page ballot; this was a two-page ballot. Seems pretty clear to me. > > Well, you’re just wrong! The ballot design was legal. A sample ballot is mailed to all voters a few weeks before the election, & I would assume that the political parties would examine the ballot to make sure their candidates are listed correctly and so on. Nobody complained about the design of the ballot. Whether or not it was “approved” has _nothing_ to do with whether it was legal under the statute. The statute is fairly clear about using one page and having the punches to the right of the names. There does seem to be some question as to whether it applies to only a certain type of ballot. But the main point is that although you are acting like it’s cut and dry, it’s actually anything but. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/63 "2000-11-11T01:34:08Z")
CNN reported that the Florida Secretary of State has declared the ballot in question legal under Florida election statutes. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/64 "2000-11-11T22:25:20Z")
I’m thrilled to hear it. But public officials “declare” things legal on a fairly regular basis – that doesn’t mean they are. That’s what the courts are for. Now, to inject a little humor, here are a couple of different takes on the Florida ballots: [http://www.best.com/~snopes/ballot.gif](http://www.best.com/~snopes/ballot.gif) [http://www.motherjones.com/frontpagegifs/floridab.gif](http://www.motherjones.com/frontpagegifs/floridab.gif) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/65 "2000-11-12T00:07:52Z")
I’ll tell a little story on myself: I’ve had the same office at work for over two years now. My name’s on a plate next to the door, and I know exactly where it is anyway. You know what I did the other day, on my way back from the printer? _I walked into the office next to mine, thinking it was my own._ Gawd, how could I be such a moron? Obviously, it’s a wonder that I can compose a complete sentence, let alone find my way to work in the morning. And retards like me _clearly_ shouldn’t be allowed the franchise, right? The point: my finding my office is a pretty easy task, **as long as I’m on task**. But when I’m reading the output from a program, trying to see if I’ve turned up anything useful, _I can botch an incredibly simple second task_, like going into the right office. The task that the Palm Beach voters were there for was to vote. It’s quite possible that their minds may have been on _that_ task, rather than the task of matching up names with arrows with holes. If you stay on task with that task, it’s not that hard. But if your mind’s on the damned election, and your eye goes somewhere else as you’re looking across the page, you follow the dividing line instead of the arrow, punch the second hole (which seemingly corresponds with the second name), and there you are, punching the wrong hole just the same as I walked into the wrong office. So I think it’s rather harsh to ridicule the people who punched the wrong hole. I’m not sure I understand those who stared at it and _still_ weren’t sure about which hole they had to punch, but then this ballot is apparently several sheets that fit into the place where the holes are, and maybe the holes and arrows lined up even more poorly when in use, on occasion, than they did in the picture that we’ve all seen far too many times now. I’m also tired of the ‘individual responsibility’ argument. Anytime you place a burden, no matter how trivial, on one group but not another (suppose, for instance, that we had asked all Bush voters to spell ‘potato’ in order to vote ;)), it can be expected to make a difference. Due to the placement of Bush’s name in the upper left position on the ballot, Bush voters didn’t face the same confusion, and didn’t need to exercise this responsibility. If they’d had to deal with the same confusion, but just hadn’t had the same difficulties, then they could make fun of Gore voters all they wanted. But they didn’t. For that reason, what we have is a biased instrument: by placing a burden on Gore voters that it didn’t place on Bush voters, the ballot itself reduced Gore’s vote count without any effect on Bush’s total. A ballot that was confusing, but equally so to voters for all candidates, would have a certain legitimacy. But a ballot that causes confusion for the voters for some candidates but not for others is not a fair ballot, and IMO, appropriate remedies should be found for the imbalance it has created. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/66 "2000-11-12T00:19:45Z")
This “biased” and “unfair” ballot has been used many times, and in many places. All over the USA. I have voted using this ballot. And still, these elections managed to conclude. People have managed to use the ballots without becoming hysterical with confusion. But you know, come to think of it, I _think_ I may have voted for the wrong thing when I voted with the Butterfly ballot. It’s such an unfair and biased ballot, after all. I want to revote. I _think_ I may have punched the wrong hole. My RIGHTS have been violated! I am a _victim_!!! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/67 "2000-11-12T02:07:12Z")
While I agree that the ballots were lousy and confusing, I’m beginning to doubt that a revote should happen. Only as a last resort. This is turning into a circus. ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/68 "2000-11-12T08:59:42Z")
Before I begin, I’d like to slap everyone in this thread who said “They didn’t know they voted wrong” or “they just _think_ they voted wrong” or any similar construction thereof. Of **course** they’re not sure. That’s what the problem is! The only way they could actually know they voted wrongly, if they went to an election official, asked if they voted for Gore and got the answer “No, but too bad!” (that would smack of illegality and possible fraud) Or if they **deliberately** voted incorrectly on purpose (that is the only case where you can call them stupid!) Also as **RTF** pointed out, though this ballot appears straightforward, you can confuse yourself if you let your mind wander and aren’t 100% focused on the task. Also, all of us debating the ballot after the fact has already been alerted that something maybe off about the ballot, so our critical examination skills are already on alert. They weren’t for the folks in Palm Beach wh were going in to do something that the do every two or four years or so. I had posted something in MPSIMS about how many different way you could misinterpret the ballot, but I can’t find it right now, so I’ll just link to various usability experts on the ballot subject. Bruce “Tog” Tognazzini ([Ask Tog](http://www.asktog.com)) > [@](#): > > Why were the designers unable to see the problem, even without testing? Because they were not users, they were designers. As such, they were interested in all 10 candidates on the ballet (plus space for a write in), and they saw all ten candidates. They viewed the ballot as a 2X6 staggered matrix with a line of radio buttons in between the two sides. Their cute little arrows appeared to be enough to help people choose the right box from this matrix. > > The voters saw things very differently. They were not interested in 10 candidates. They were interested in one candidate, the one they wanted to vote for. Their entire focus was on finding that candidate and punching the hole next to his or her name. In the case of Gore, that required scanning only two names down in the first column. There was never any reason at all for Gore voters to ever even see the right hand column, and we now have 23,000 pieces of evidence that they, indeed, didn’t. Rather than a staggered matrix, they saw a single column with a dedicated column of radio buttons ajoining. Jakob Nielsen > [@](#): > > **Some obvious situations in which people could make mistakes** > [list] > [li]Have poor eyesight (narrow field of view or can read large party name but not smaller number)[/li][li]Left-handed and use right hand to steady the Vote Recorder, covering list on right[/li][li]Are spatially challenged (can’t read maps well) but can count[/li][li]Doing things by rote from last time (double column is new for Presidential race)[/li][li]Cultural issues (don’t understand the arrows)[/li][li]Thought arrows pointed to entire column, not specific hole, and are used to SAT-type tests with separate grid and ordered questions down the column[/li][li]Nervous or confused by new voting style (just moved to warmer climate)[/li][li]In a hurry because voting lines are long and you’re unexpectedly late for an appointment[/li][empahsis mine!] > … > I have heard from a variety of people about voting instrument confusion in many states, not just near West Palm Beach Florida. We know from lots of examples of usability studies that errors on tasks arising from “dumb mistakes” are very common, with rates of easily 5%, 10%, or more. Elections, even important ones like for President of the United States, are often decided by much slimmer margins than that. > … > I can tell you, regular people get tripped up by the simplest things. It is sobering to observe a test where a user repeatedly asks “How do I go to the next step?” and you want to scream “Click the ‘Next’ button!” that they just somehow can’t see. You thought the button was obvious, but, as anyone who’s missed a highway exit learns, in the real world what’s obvious to one person who knows the answer is not always obvious to a newcomer. People who are making fun of the voters who made mistakes should think about the obvious mistakes they’ve made in their lives. If “most people” never have problems doing simple things why were there so many flashing 12:00s on old VCRs? > > The difference in this case looks like it was an error of only 0.75%. However, there are reports that almost 20,000 Palm Beach ballots were disqualified because voters punched more than one hole, perhaps because they caught their mistake and then punched the one they really wanted (4.4% – an apparently high number). And even [more analysis](http://fury.com/galleries/palmbeach/index.php) can be found here! ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/69 "2000-11-12T14:29:44Z")
Consider this: **Hypothetical Situation A:** the ballots are designed extremely clearly, and somehow, a large percentage of the population, being careless or stupid, still manages to screw up their votes and mark the wrong spot. **Hypothetical Situation B:** the ballots are totally misleading to the point where voting for the right guy is very unlikely. Huge numbers of people vote wrong. In situation A, we would obviously say “tough cookies…if you’re not paying attention when you vote, it’s your own fault.” In situation B, we would obviously say “this was unfair and something must be done about it”. The question is which of these two situations more closely resembles what happened in Palm Beach. I tend to side with the “tough cookies” crowd, since the ballots _were_ ultimately comprehensible, as long as you were paying attention. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that people be careful to make sure they’re voting for the right person. Who remembers the scan-tron test forms in school? It was easy to get off by one and fill in the wrong bubbles for a whole series of questions. Bad user interface, but still no sympathy. Double check your work. Claiming you felt rushed or embarrassed is really no excuse. This is why we only let grownups vote – you’re supposed to be able to be enough of an adult to say “I screwed this up and I’d like to vote again”, or “I know people are waiting, but this is an important decision, so I should take my time.” Regarding the people who asked for new ballots, but were refused: yes, that’s bad. Yes, it probably happens in every election, due to morons working at the polls. No, it’s not significant in this case. There are **very few** reports of this occuring. In addition, that is the type of problem which has to be addressed **when it occurs**. We can’t wait until after the election and then have a whole bunch of people claim they were denied proper voting procedure on those grounds; there’s no way to verify it. I do think it’s very unfortunate that this affected Gore but not Bush. I would have preferred Gore to win. That doesn’t necessarily mean that there should be a re-vote or that any drastic action needs to be taken. It **should** , however, make us all double-check our work in 2004. This includes the people designing the forms. I think a good addition (but more costly) would be to print different versions of the forms with the candidates in different orders, so each voter has a random candidate listed 1st, 2nd, etc. This way any such confusion like we’ve had this year will affect all the candidates equally. Of course, making the forms clear enough that this confusion is eliminated would be a nice goal, but randomizing the order would be an extra safeguard. ---
**Author:** ![psycho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/958977/32.png) [@psycho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycho)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/70 "2000-11-12T14:48:43Z")
Don’t any of these “too bad” people realize that it was the \same mistake\ every time? If 19000 people double punch, too bad. If 19000 people double punch in the exact same way, let’s take a look, huh? Put Gore’s name on top of that ballot and Bush’s second. Suddenly it’s the senile \republicans\ who are making the mistake and the Bush people demanding a recount and legal action. And although Ashcroft was a class act in this, Nixon was not. He demanded recounts in (I think) eight states and filed a pile of lawsuits. Why history forgets that, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385/71 "2000-11-12T15:29:02Z")
Psycho, clearly the form was misleading. There is definitely a pattern. However, it’s not evident (to me at least) that that warrants turning this election upside down. I think it’s perfectly valid to say “those 19000 people were careless, and threw their votes away because of it.” Give us a little credit. If you reread my last post, you will see that at least **I** am willing to see both sides of the issue, which you are completely incapable of, it seems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youre-too-dumb-to-figure-out-this-form-you-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-vote-anyway/40385.md?page=3)