# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/381 "2012-07-23T03:20:06Z")
> [@](#): > > You are not Ozymandias or Superman looking down from above us all. And even if you were, as a participant who profits from the economy, guess what? You get to pay taxes on that. It’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/382 "2012-07-23T03:25:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Based on this logic, the only creators truly worthy of praise are the guy who came up with the wheel and the inclined plain. Edison? He had a lab, and employees. Employees who wore clothes so they didn’t die in the cold. Oh and they all ate food. Food they didn’t grow themselves. This logic that Edison or Jobs or others don’t deserve the credit for what they accomplished because, well, there was Gutenberg, the Sear Roebuck Catlaog, the Railroad and Aristotle is absurd. I would say it serves no purpose, but it’s worse than that; One is the point of the narrative you put forth? It’s creates a narrative that stuff happens without the initiative of the individual. Without the immense sacrifice and hard work, and without at times, genius. > > It’s a false narrative. And one that is UNhelpful to society. > > Why would anyone want to peddle this nonsense? Do they want to feel like they had something to do with the creation of the iPod or other great products? Are they insecure and feel minimized when there are people doing amazing great things? I just don’t get it. > > And I think you made Newton turn in his grave. He was giving credit to the great scientists and thinkers that preceded him, not the guy who made his chamber pot or milked the cow. It doesn’t help to totally mischaracterise what people are saying. I said right there in my post that in all likilihood, nobody else could have done what Jobs did. How much more credit do you want me to give him? However he is the first to admit that he worked with some fantastically talented people. That he was able to harness that talent, full credit needs to go to him. It doesn’t change the fact though that that talent was there. That he was able to leverage it. If you think that Apple is the work of Jobs and Jobs alone you are more than ignorant. BTW - as a total aside, the “official” autobiography of Jobs is an awesome read, and comes highly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/383 "2012-07-23T13:28:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Get it through your thick heads. Steve Jobs did not do it alone. And even if he had somehow been some kind of Kryptonian genius inventor-fabricator, he still would have a social responsibility to pay his taxes, like everyone else in the economy. > > I don’t care how big a genius you are. PAY YOUR TAXES. > I don’t care how elite (or 1337) you are. PAY YOUR TAXES. > I don’t care if you’re Superman, or Opal. PAY YOUR TAXES. > > You’re not being punished. It is not the apish hordes tearing down your little self-made corner of paradise (and I love that J.G. Ballard story, but it’s not). It’s for basic macroeconomic purposes to provide for the general welfare. You are not a Gawd. You are not Ozymandias or Superman looking down from above us all. > > SUCK IT UP AND PAY YOUR TAXES LIKE A PERSON. > > That’s it. I don’t see anyone saying that anyone else shouldn’t pay taxes. Do you? If so, who. If not, what’s the point of your post? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/384 "2012-07-23T13:32:32Z")
So they’ve got a soundbite they can take out of context and whip up outrage among people who weren’t going to vote for Obama in the first place. BFD. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/385 "2012-07-23T13:48:05Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > It doesn’t help to totally mischaracterise what people are saying. > [@bengangmo](#): > > If you think that Apple is the work of Jobs and Jobs alone you are more than ignorant. Ahem. Well, that’s a fine piece of work you’ve done there, Mr. Pot. 😉 But can you tell me what person in this thread, or on this planet, believes the latter of these two statements? The point is that even if we heap absolute praise on Jobs and never mention anyone else, STILL no one would think that “Apple is the work of Jobs and Jobs alone”. No one. They’d even be of the mind that some people made significant contributions. I mean, anyone running a business of any size has people helping, some even make large contributions. Hopefully, each of them did the job they were paid to do. And, I ask, where does the need to have praise _not_ be directed to an individual stop? Can we no longer say that Hank Aaron is a Home Run Champ, because well, their are umpires and groundskeepers, not to mention people who made the bat and the ball—and the fence! We we celebrate the heroics if a man who runs into a burning building, do we also praise the people who made the shoes he was wearing at the time? Hell, in this very thread we have people not wanting to give Phelps all the credit for winning 8 Gold Medals because, well, he was driven to practice and someone had to make the pools he swims in. Talk about ridiculous. Where does it stop? Is there any point that we can celebrate the accomplishments of _individuals_? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/386 "2012-07-23T13:49:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Edison? He had a lab, and employees. [Yes he did.](http://jawadonweb.com/?page_id=900) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/387 "2012-07-23T14:21:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Yes he did.](http://jawadonweb.com/?page_id=900) And if he were around to day he’d probably be able to figure out why your link doesn’t work for me. But, me? I’m stuck. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/388 "2012-07-23T14:28:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …Talk about ridiculous. Where does it stop? Is there any point that we can celebrate the accomplishments of _individuals_? Sure there is: > [@](#): > > The point is, is that when we succeed, _ **we succeed because of our individual initiative** _, but also because we do things together. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/389 "2012-07-23T14:34:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ahem. Well, that’s a fine piece of work you’ve done there, Mr. Pot. 😉 But can you tell me what person in this thread, or on this planet, believes the latter of these two statements? > > The point is that even if we heap absolute praise on Jobs and never mention anyone else, STILL no one would think that “Apple is the work of Jobs and Jobs alone”. No one. They’d even be of the mind that some people made significant contributions. I mean, anyone running a business of any size has people helping, some even make large contributions. Hopefully, each of them did the job they were paid to do. > > And, I ask, where does the need to have praise _not_ be directed to an individual stop? Can we no longer say that Hank Aaron is a Home Run Champ, because well, their are umpires and groundskeepers, not to mention people who made the bat and the ball—and the fence! We we celebrate the heroics if a man who runs into a burning building, do we also praise the people who made the shoes he was wearing at the time? Hell, in this very thread we have people not wanting to give Phelps all the credit for winning 8 Gold Medals because, well, he was driven to practice and someone had to make the pools he swims in. > > Talk about ridiculous. Where does it stop? Is there any point that we can celebrate the accomplishments of _individuals_? So can you help me out here. In relation to Obama’s speech, what is it that you’re trying to say? That people don’t need others to succeed, or that they do? And please stop talking about shoes and water. Recognizing a great coach, a fantastic mentor, an inspirational teacher is just a little different than thanking a pair of shoes don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/390 "2012-07-23T17:19:23Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > So can you help me out here. In relation to Obama’s speech, what is it that you’re trying to say? That people don’t need others to succeed, or that they do? It has to do with the narrative that is presented, writ large. Of course, there are other people who have contributed. That’s the default. Everyone knows that. When we say Hank Aaron deserves a medal for hitting home runs, we know damn well that someone turned him on to baseball, coached him along the way, encouraged him, that he had teammates along the way. That perhaps other great players pushed him to be the best he could be. Maybe someone gave him a job baling hay as a kid that helped him get strong. Someone taught him to read and while reading he picked up a crucial typo that allowed him top approve his hitting. Whatever. Yet we give the honor of the accomplishment to HIM. In this very thread people have attempted to say that “Well, Phelps did well, but he didn’t do it on his own”. And all sorts of nonsense was brought up in defense of that. The ridiculous lengths people are willing to go to take Phelps down half a notch, or Jobs, is indicative of the narrative driven by their ideology as it applies to the government and taxes. Obama and other socialist-minded leftists want to present a reality where the individual is diminished and the collective is the thing celebrated. They know that for people to swallow an even more disproportionate amount of the tax burden being taken up by successful people they must create a fairytale in which the people of accomplishment not only beholden to the government, but beholden to it in an even more lopsided fashion. They want to make it okay to put their hands into a successful person’s pockets because, “well, he owes us more of that money anyway”. > [@bengangmo](#): > > And please stop talking about shoes and water. Recognizing a great coach, a fantastic mentor, an inspirational teacher is just a little different than thanking a pair of shoes don’t you think? The question is, where do you draw the line. You couldn’t have a better example than Phelps and Jobs, yet people turn themselves into knots deflecting their success to factors other than themselves. It’s a grotesquely contorted view of reality. And, as I’ve said, it’s not helpful to society. We should be constructing narrative that creates more Steve Jobses, not fewer. Everyone knows that if they start a company that there are roads there to get their employees to work and get their good delivers. Really—EVERYONE! So, it adds nothing and diminishes the narrative that we SHOULD be pushing, namely, that great success is possible. It is up to you. You just have to decide what you want, formulate a plan to get it and carry out that plan. It’s likely going to be hard work, but others have done it. That means you can do it. Just figure out what your suited for and what you’re willing to sacrifice almost everything for. Jobs did it. And thousands and thousands of other businessmen and entrepreneurs have done it. If you don’t have the financial resources, start small and know that you have something more important than money: desire, initiative, and the willingness to work harder than the next guy. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/391 "2012-07-23T17:58:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t see anyone saying that anyone else shouldn’t pay taxes. Do you? If so, who. If not, what’s the point of your post? What do you think this discussion is about? Do you really think that the Democrats are just out to deny great men credit for things? :rolleyes: This is a discussion with policy implications. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/392 "2012-07-23T18:07:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In this very thread people have attempted to say that “Well, Phelps did well, but he didn’t do it on his own”. > > … > > The ridiculous lengths people are willing to go to take Phelps down half a notch,… > > … > > The question is, where do you draw the line. You couldn’t have a better example than Phelps and Jobs,… The first person to bring up Michael Phelps in the thread was you, as an example of… Well, you never really were able to answer that. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/393 "2012-07-23T19:01:10Z")
Do you think Michael Phelps is taking himself down a notch when he expresses gratitude for all the people who support him? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/394 "2012-07-23T19:07:14Z")
This all could have been avoided if Obama had just said “we succeed because of our individual initiative”. Then his intent would have been clear and Fox News would not have been confused. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/395 "2012-07-23T19:21:40Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > This all could have been avoided if Obama had just said “we succeed because of our individual initiative”. Then his intent would have been clear and Fox News would not have been confused. That doesn’t get him off the hook. If candidate A said “I have all respect for women and think they absolutely are equals to men. However, they really should just stay at home and raise kids because their delicate minds aren’t suited to the demands of the workplace.” Candidate B would absolutely be in his rights to use the second sentence against him, without the first somehow shielding him from responsibility. Another real world example of this was the ban of certain types of ammo that Kennedy and others attempted to pass in 2005. The NRA fought it, arguing that it potentially banned any guns that could penetrate a bullet proof vest, which would include basically any hunting rifle. The lawmakers pointed to a statement in the law saying it wasn’t meant to be aimed at hunters. So what, said the hunters? It can state its good intent all day long, but if it bans them it bans them. You can’t get off the hook when you make a dumb statement just because you first posted a disclaimer. In fact, if you find yourself making such an upfront disclaimer, you should probably just stop talking because you are about to step in it. I refuse to use the term gaffe, because like the “cling to religion and guns” comment last time around I think this is insight into what Obama really feels. Its not just a misstatement. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/396 "2012-07-23T19:25:18Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That doesn’t get him off the hook. > > If candidate A said > > “I have all respect for women and think they absolutely are equals to men. However, they really should just stay at home and raise kids because their delicate minds aren’t suited to the demands of the workplace.” > > Candidate B would absolutely be in his rights to use the second sentence against him, without the first somehow shielding him from responsibility. > > Another real world example of this was the ban of certain types of ammo that Kennedy and others attempted to pass in 2005. The NRA fought it, arguing that it potentially banned any guns that could penetrate a bullet proof vest, which would include basically any hunting rifle. The lawmakers pointed to a statement in the law saying it wasn’t meant to be aimed at hunters. So what, said the hunters? It can state its good intent all day long, but if it bans them it bans them. > > You can’t get off the hook when you make a dumb statement just because you first posted a disclaimer. In fact, if you find yourself making such an upfront disclaimer, you should probably just stop talking because you are about to step in it. I refuse to use the term gaffe, because like the “cling to religion and guns” comment last time around I think this is insight into what Obama really feels. Its not just a misstatement. Those are all excellent points. Whenever a situation comes up in which Obama has made a dumb statement, maybe they will apply. Sadly, they are irrelevant to the present situation, since Obama didn’t make a dumb statement. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/397 "2012-07-23T19:25:57Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > (And for that matter, did Al Gore _**(PBOH)**_ That little bit of business right there reveals your utter lack of sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/398 "2012-07-23T19:42:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Those are all excellent points. Whenever a situation comes up in which Obama has made a dumb statement, maybe they will apply. Sadly, they are irrelevant to the present situation, since Obama didn’t make a dumb statement. Says you. Most american’s are with Romney on this one. Most people actually like small business owners and don’t want to see them bad-mouthed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/399 "2012-07-23T19:53:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Says you. Most american’s are with Romney on this one. Most people actually like small business owners and don’t want to see them bad-mouthed. Obama has simply never bad mouthed business owners. Pretending he did, especially based on the misrepresentation discussed in this thread, is simply false. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/400 "2012-07-23T19:58:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Obama has simply never bad mouthed business owners. Pretending he did, especially based on the misrepresentation discussed in this thread, is simply false. Eight pages in and you still think you can just hand-wave it away, huh? Good luck with that. There’s no misrepresentation. The meaning doesn’t change when you view the statement in context or on its own. It’s posted back on page one if you need a refresher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=21)