# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/441 "2012-07-24T11:42:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > As for the rest of your post, I can respect the philosophical position you describe, even if I don’t agree. I do think you’re right to point out there’s a “where do we draw the line?” question–but I tend to think that the line should be drawn nowhere, and the credit should be distributed _unevenly_ all the way down the line. (Most of it going to the individual accomplisher, but graduatedly smaller amounts to others in the causal network behind him.) But of course in practical terms this is all immeasurable, and that’s another serious wrinkle with a position like mine. Apparently praise is a zero-sum game to some people; to offer any to people down the line is to take some away from those at the top. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/442 "2012-07-24T12:02:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Apparently praise is a zero-sum game to some people; to offer any to people down the line is to take some away from those at the top. That’s one of the more remarkable things to.come from this for me. My hypothesis is that this links in more with the disposition to authoritarianism by conservatives, but it’s still weird. ETA: Magellan, what do you like about America? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/443 "2012-07-24T12:18:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Like I’ve said, you might as well as give a should out to gravity. A guy who makes a billion dollars selling weightlifting equipment probably should. At a minimum, he shouldn’t be bitching about a tiny increase in his taxes that go to maintaining our gravitational infrastructure. Anyway, this isn’t really about Obama taking credit away from businessmen. It’s about Republicans giving too much credit to businessmen. Acting as though they are untouchable “job creators” who will drive the economy out of the doldrums by virtue of their bootstrappy awesomeness, if we just cut their taxes again. Obama is reminding them that no man, or company, is an island. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/444 "2012-07-24T13:06:59Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Well, did Gov. Romney directly address Michael Phelps to say: “You’ve got those gold medals, but you didn’t win that. Somebody else made that happen.” Exactly. Romney’s statement was an upbeat and positive one. He wasn’t belittling the athletes. He wasn’t putting them down. Obama was. It’s amazing that so many can’t see that simple truth. I hope Obama supporters spread that video far and wide. Romney comes across well in it. Meanwhile, anyone who hears that Obama quote will think less of him, even with the full context. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/445 "2012-07-24T13:47:03Z")
Go ahead and base your campaign on one comment taken out of context. This might be just a successful a tactic as the 2008 “cling to guns and religion” frenzy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/446 "2012-07-24T13:50:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What kind of [person](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/23/1112799/-Romney-to-Olympians-You-didn-t-get-here-solely-on-your-own) would claim that Olympians didn’t achieve their excellence on their own? Meh. They just took over the world the Titans had built. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/447 "2012-07-24T13:56:35Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Exactly. Romney’s statement was an upbeat and positive one. He wasn’t belittling the athletes. He wasn’t putting them down. > > Obama was. This is bizarre. They _said the same thing_. You _interpret_ one as debasing athletes and the other as upraising them simply based on your own political associations. You think Obama _must_ have been belittling people, since you think that’s just the kind of guy he is. Mutatis mutandis for Romney. But what you _should_ do is actually read what they actually said, and interpret the meaning of the words they spoke. Then you might be in a position to _learn about the world around you_ instead of projecting your own prejudices onto your perceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/448 "2012-07-24T14:16:59Z")
One thing that is both funny and starkly illustrative of the fucking point is the difficulty that Romney is having as he goes around pointing to businesses to illustrate his point. From the incomparable Steve Benen at Maddow Blog: [http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/07/24/12924972-the-foolish-embrace-of-self-defeating-arguments](http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/24/12924972-the-foolish-embrace-of-self-defeating-arguments) > [@](#): > > First, Romney hoped to prove that government doesn’t help make small businesses possible, so he appeared at a small business that wouldn’t exist were it not for government assistance. Then, still hoping to show that businesses thrive without government, Romney hosted a meeting with business owners who depend on government contracts to make a living. > > And finally, remember the New Hampshire business owner who appears in Romney’s latest attack ad? His name is Jack Gilchrist and he’s offended that the president is “demonizing” him for his hard-earned success. (That Obama never did this is apparently irrelevant.) > > Yesterday we learned that Gilchrist’s business thrived after receiving $800,000 in tax-exempt revenue bonds – subsidized by tax dollars paid by you and me – and benefits from government contracts. In fact, the Romney campaign’s hand-picked example also conceded yesterday that public spending is good for the economy. The guy cannot apparently even select any examples of businesses or entrepreneurs who have not directly benefited from support or assistance from US taxpayers. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/449 "2012-07-24T14:33:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Go ahead and base your campaign on one comment taken out of context. This might be just a successful a tactic as the 2008 “cling to guns and religion” frenzy. I’m not running Romney’s campaign. But if I were, I wouldn’t base my campaign off of this one comment. However, since this thread is about the comment, I’m discussing it here. The reason I come out of lurker mode is usually when I’m exasperated by the lack of understanding on the SDMB about a simple concept such as this because of the overwhelming groupthink. It’s not a big deal, but it was a poor statement for him to make. That’s all. I admit it when Romney messes up. It’s funny you can’t do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/450 "2012-07-24T14:34:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You _interpret_ one as debasing athletes… I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/451 "2012-07-24T14:37:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I admit it when Romney messes up. It’s funny you can’t do the same. What, for you it’s just about making sure not to say things that can be sound-bitten out of context? Yeah, sure, I’ll cop to that on behalf of Obama. He should be more careful not to say things that, when taken out of context, can be misconstrued. All politicians know this, and he could have done a better job. That’s seriously all it’s about for you? Not who is right about economics or policy, but who is the more skillful politician? Okay. Whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/452 "2012-07-24T15:00:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is bizarre. They _said the same thing_. I’ll make an honest effort to help you understand. Here is Romey’s: > [@Romney](#): > > There are a lot of athletes who agree with me - because they want to give something back. Look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I am to talented. There are a lot of talented people out there. It must be because I trained harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.) > > You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power, somebody gave you some help. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities. All right! [pumps fist]. See how Romney’s statement is praising the athletes, without lecturing them? Without speaking down to them and disparaging them? It doesn’t share the spirit of Obama’s message at all. He’s not putting words in their mouths. He doesn’t chastise them. Here is Obama’s quote: > [@Obama](#): > > There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me – because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t – look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.) > > If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business – you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. > > The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. Do I really need to go through this and point out all the parts that are disparaging towards the business owners that aren’t there in Romney’s? Can you truly not see them? If so, it’s not be who’s blinded by partisanship. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/453 "2012-07-24T15:01:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What, for you it’s just about making sure not to say things that can be sound-bitten out of context? No. I don’t think this, which is why I never said it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/454 "2012-07-24T15:11:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Okay. Whatever floats your boat. He’s a conservative. He independently floats his own boat. You want to suggest that the water has something to do with it? Socialist! ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/455 "2012-07-24T15:45:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ll make an honest effort to help you understand. > > Here is Romey’s: > > See how Romney’s statement is praising the athletes, without lecturing them? Without speaking down to them and disparaging them? It doesn’t share the spirit of Obama’s message at all. He’s not putting words in their mouths. He doesn’t chastise them. > Here is Obama’s quote: > > Do I really need to go through this and point out all the parts that are disparaging towards the business owners that aren’t there in Romney’s? Can you truly not see them? If so, it’s not be who’s blinded by partisanship. Where did that text of the Romney speech come from? It is different than the one linked a few pages back. Just one person’s view but at the presidential level I’ve voted for two libertarians, three republicans and four democrats. I don’t think of myself as partisan and I don’t see the big insult to business. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/456 "2012-07-24T16:09:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ll make an honest effort to help you understand. > > Here is Romey’s: > > See how Romney’s statement is praising the athletes, without lecturing them? Without speaking down to them and disparaging them? It doesn’t share the spirit of Obama’s message at all. He’s not putting words in their mouths. He doesn’t chastise them. > Here is Obama’s quote: > > Do I really need to go through this and point out all the parts that are disparaging towards the business owners that aren’t there in Romney’s? Can you truly not see them? If so, it’s not be who’s blinded by partisanship. It looks like you were trying to do something a little tricksy, but didn’t follow through? Or something? I’m not sure what to make of your post TBH. I’ll go perform the trick I _think_ you were trying to do, and see if it makes your point for you or not. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/457 "2012-07-24T16:16:09Z")
Well never mind, on further consideration I’m not sure what you were trying to do at all. But I think your point is that Obama’s speech should be primarily seen as disparaging because it talks about some hypothetical business owners who don’t give the infrastructure builders etc. enough credit. It’s true that Romney’s speech presumes all Olympians know they didn’t get there by themselves, while Obama’s speech presumes some business owners think they got there by themselves. The presumption in Obama’s speech seems uncontroversial true, though. So you’re not worried about whether he’s right–you’re more interested in what the psychological consequences of his manner of presentation might be. As before, I’d say that for you, the question seems to be more one of evaluating effectiveness of speechmaking, than evaluating strength of argument. Fair enough–you can be interested in whatever you’re interested in. But to me it seems irrelevant. And the great majority of the discussion I’ve seen has been oriented on the question of whether what Obama and Romney said were _correct_, and whether they _mean the same thing_ or not–not on how various audiences will _feel_ about what they said. I don’t care how audiences will feel about what they said. I care about whether they’re right. And they were both right–but Romney is wrong when he pretends Obama is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/458 "2012-07-24T16:22:54Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ll make an honest effort to help you understand. > > Here is Romey’s: > > See how Romney’s statement is praising the athletes, without lecturing them? Without speaking down to them and disparaging them? It doesn’t share the spirit of Obama’s message at all. He’s not putting words in their mouths. He doesn’t chastise them. > Here is Obama’s quote: > > Do I really need to go through this and point out all the parts that are disparaging towards the business owners that aren’t there in Romney’s? Can you truly not see them? If so, it’s not be who’s blinded by partisanship. Wow. That’s not an honest effort, but a patently dishonest effort. That’s moving beyond the realm of acceptable, in my opinion. Falsely presenting a quote as coming from a particular person… yeeesh! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/459 "2012-07-24T16:31:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow. That’s not an honest effort, but a patently dishonest effort. That’s moving beyond the realm of acceptable, in my opinion. Falsely presenting a quote as coming from a particular person… yeeesh! Meh. I think he was not intending anyone to be “fooled”, I think he was trying to make a point through the parallel substitutions. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/460 "2012-07-24T16:47:28Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It looks like you were trying to do something a little tricksy, but didn’t follow through? Or something? I’m not sure what to make of your post TBH. I’ll go perform the trick I _think_ you were trying to do, and see if it makes your point for you or not. Yeah, I was going to mock up Romney’s speech to make it as insulting to athletes as Obama’s was to business owners. But, I didn’t have time because something called me away. I meant to just post the vanilla speech there and maybe get back to altering it later. Copy paste wasn’t my friend, apparently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=24)