# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/461 "2012-07-24T16:51:15Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It’s true that Romney’s speech presumes all Olympians know they didn’t get there by themselves, while Obama’s speech presumes some business owners think they got there by themselves. You are looking at that difference very dispassionately. When you label it so clinically, it does sound rather tame. But, that key difference you point out turns the entire tone of the speech on it’s head. It turns it from positive and upbeat (Romney), to scolding and chastising (Obama). It has a profound impact on the content and meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/462 "2012-07-24T16:52:27Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow. That’s not an honest effort, but a patently dishonest effort. That’s moving beyond the realm of acceptable, in my opinion. Falsely presenting a quote as coming from a particular person… yeeesh! You can always count on **Hentor** to assume the worst. I’ll get around to doing the mock up as I planned if that will make you happy. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/463 "2012-07-24T17:01:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You are looking at that difference very dispassionately. When you label it so clinically, it does sound rather tame. But, that key difference you point out turns the entire tone of the speech on it’s head. It turns it from positive and upbeat (Romney), to scolding and chastising (Obama). It has a profound impact on the content and meaning. To repeat: What Romney says isn’t “Obama shouldn’t take a scolding tone,” but rather, “Obama is incorrect.” Romney is wrong about that, and he knows it, since he said the same thing 10 years ago. Meanwhile, since it is true that some people think, incorrectly, that they (or others) get where they are purely on their own efforts, the correction is called for. The scolding is appropriate. I’d scold 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/464 "2012-07-24T17:03:30Z")
You seem to be working very very hard on being insulted, Debaser. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/465 "2012-07-24T17:06:40Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can always count on **Hentor** to assume the worst. Interesting how that works, isn’t it? You go out and try to make an eminently reasonable point, and he ascribes the worst possible motive to your post. I think we should be glad that this is the first time that’s happened in this thread, otherwise we’d all be banging our heads uselessly against each other. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/466 "2012-07-24T17:06:43Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You are looking at that difference very dispassionately. When you label it so clinically, it does sound rather tame. But, that key difference you point out turns the entire tone of the speech on it’s head. It turns it from positive and upbeat (Romney), to scolding and chastising (Obama). It has a profound impact on the content and meaning. When you use critical thinking skills to analyze something, you are supposed to be dispassionate. Passion injects bias. Your passion about this issue (and specifically against Obama) is coloring your perception and making you see negative motivations and dastardly plans that simply are not there. If you looked at things critically rather than passionately you might see why you are seeing this so differently than everyone else. It isn’t that everyone else is brainwashed into this massive group think cult that’s against you and small businesses for some reason. You don’t seriously think that do you? It sounds a little paranoid schizophrenic if you do, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/467 "2012-07-24T17:11:10Z")
> [@Hypothetical](#): > > There are a lot of athletes who agree with me - because they want to give something back. Look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I am to talented. There are a lot of talented people out there. It must be because I trained harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.) > > You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power, somebody gave you some help. There was a great coach somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable international system that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in your training facilities. If you got to the Olympics – You didn’t do that. Somebody else made that happen. The snowboard didn’t get invented on it’s own. Jake Burton invented the snowboard so that everyone could ride it. > > The point is that when all Olympians succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. It’s funny to look at it like this, because I can’t imagine Romney, Obama or anyone talking to an audience of Olympic athletes or their supporters this way. It would be rude and insulting. Just like Obama was rude an insulting in speaking to small business owners as he did. **Frylock** was hitting close to it when he commented about the key difference that Romney is assuming the Olympians knew they got there with help and the business owners are assumed by Obama to be “go it alone” types. This shades the entire tone to be one that’s insulting and is very revealing about how Obama views business owners. He doesn’t give them the benefit of the doubt. Nearly every line is talking down and I find it odd that anyone would have trouble seeing that. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/468 "2012-07-24T17:13:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > You seem to be working very very hard on being insulted, Debaser. I’m not insulted. I’m not a small business owner, even. I am just bemused to see the ignorance in this thread by a board that is supposed to be fighting it. I mean, I get that you all like Obama, but really. The words are plain to see. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/469 "2012-07-24T17:15:20Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > It isn’t that everyone else is brainwashed into this massive group think cult that’s against you and small businesses for some reason. You don’t seriously think that do you? It sounds a little paranoid schizophrenic if you do, to be honest. Try and respond to things I actually post and not make up crazy stuff, OK? I think that people in this thread like Obama and are allowing this to impact their view of his words to read them in a much more positive light than a dispassionate viewer would. That’s it. No conspiracy by alien illuminastriousnessors. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/470 "2012-07-24T17:15:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s funny to look at it like this, because I can’t imagine Romney, Obama or anyone talking to an audience of Olympic athletes or their supporters this way. It would be rude and insulting. Just like Obama was rude an insulting in speaking to small business owners as he did. Olympians are amateurs. The idea of an amateur “giving back” is a bit silly. Now imagine in your hypothetical that you’re speaking about multi-millionaire NBA players and the need for them to contribute to local youth athletics programs. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/471 "2012-07-24T17:20:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Well never mind, on further consideration I’m not sure what you were trying to do at all. “Obfuscation, obfuscation, obfuscation.” > [@Frylock](#): > > But I think your point is that Obama’s speech should be primarily seen as disparaging because it talks about some hypothetical business owners who don’t give the infrastructure builders etc. enough credit. > > It’s true that Romney’s speech presumes all Olympians know they didn’t get there by themselves, while Obama’s speech presumes some business owners think they got there by themselves. > > The presumption in Obama’s speech seems uncontroversial true, though. So you’re not worried about whether he’s right–you’re more interested in what the psychological consequences of his manner of presentation might be. As before, I’d say that for you, the question seems to be more one of evaluating effectiveness of speechmaking, than evaluating strength of argument. Fair enough–you can be interested in whatever you’re interested in. But to me it seems irrelevant. And the great majority of the discussion I’ve seen has been oriented on the question of whether what Obama and Romney said were _correct_, and whether they _mean the same thing_ or not–not on how various audiences will _feel_ about what they said. I don’t care how audiences will feel about what they said. I care about whether they’re right. Correct. It’s clear that Obama wasn’t referring to all business owners as a whole, only to a few who think they deserve to freeload off the system. For the Michael Phelps analogy to work here, he’d have to think he didn’t need to credit anyone else for helping him along the way (equal to a businessman not paying his fair share of taxes), but since that isn’t the case, it doesn’t wash at all. > [@Frylock](#): > > …but Romney is wrong when he pretends Obama is wrong. Romney’s not only wrong. By blatantly taking Obama out of context and “pretending” that he’s wrong, he’s stooping to unethical levels that I wouldn’t want to see in my leader. It makes you wonder what else he’s willing to do just to get elected. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/472 "2012-07-24T17:20:28Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] To repeat: What Romney says isn’t “Obama shouldn’t take a scolding tone,” but rather, “Obama is incorrect.” Romney is wrong about that, and he knows it, since he said the same thing 10 years ago. [/quote] I don’t think that’s true. Here’s some more comments by Romney. (It’s just the first hit on Google news.) [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/24/obama-claims-romney-twisted-his-words-on-didnt-build-that/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/24/obama-claims-romney-twisted-his-words-on-didnt-build-that/) > [@Romney](#): > > “The context is worse than the quote,” Romney told CNBC, in an interview that was tweeted out by the Republican National Committee. > > “The context, he says, you know, you think you’ve been successful because you’re smart, but he says a lot of people are smart. You think you’ve been successful because you work hard, a lot of people work hard. This is an ideology which says hey, we’re all the same here, we ought to take from all and give to one another and that achievement, individual initiative and risk-taking and success are not to be rewarded as they have in the past,” Romney said. “It’s a very strange and, in some respects, foreign to the American experience type of philosophy.” It sounds to me like Romney totally gets it. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, since it is true that some people think, incorrectly, that they (or others) get where they are purely on their own efforts, the correction is called for. The scolding is appropriate. I’d scold 'em. So, Obama is"scolding" small businesses, then? \*Scolding is my word. There’s probably a better one. I also don’t think Romney used it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/473 "2012-07-24T17:21:05Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Now: You _do_ think, don’t you, that since there _is_ a causal network behind the success of each great individual, and since great individuals are a good thing to have succeed, investment in that causal network ought to be made or continued? I think “causal” is the exact wrong word. I think of the network you mention, the infrastructure, not as something that _makes_ things happen, but _allows_ things to happen. That really is the point. If it were truly causal, wouldn’t everyone being doing exceptional and great things? But they’re not. No, the network, the infrastructure, is the backdrop. The baseline. Nothing more. That doesn’t mean that it is not super helpful, even crucial to most endeavors, but it does not _cause_ anything. But, addressing your larger point, I absolutely agree that investment should continue to be made to it. I think we might tend to disagree in three areas: 1) how much should be invested, 2) the degree to which public work (trash collecting, road maintenance, etc.,) must be done by public employees, and 3) the way the cost burden is spread over the populace. Namely, I advocate a much flatter tax system, a much less progressive one. While the particulars of that are the subject of another debate, that is what lies at the hear of much of the disagreement people have over Obama’s words. As I’ve said more than once, he’s trying to build a narrative that minimizes individual initiative and talent and replace it with praise for what the collective provides…the baseline. The more he can succeed in pairing that grotesque narrative, the more palatable he makes it for the government to raise taxes on people, with the easiest target being, naturally, the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/474 "2012-07-24T17:24:16Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Olympians are amateurs. The idea of an amateur “giving back” is a bit silly. > > Now imagine in your hypothetical that you’re speaking about multi-millionaire NBA players and the need for them to contribute to local youth athletics programs. It would be perfectly reasonable and fine to appeal to their own road to success, in the hopes that they then voluntarily contribute. But that’s not like taxes at all. You realize that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/475 "2012-07-24T17:28:47Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Try and respond to things I actually post and not make up crazy stuff, OK? > > I think that people in this thread like Obama and are allowing this to impact their view of his words to read them in a much more positive light than a dispassionate viewer would. That’s it. No conspiracy by alien illuminastriousnessors. Do you instantly forget the things that you type right after you type them?: > [@Debaser](#): > > The reason I come out of lurker mode is usually when I’m exasperated by the lack of understanding on the SDMB about a simple concept such as this because of the overwhelming groupthink. > [@Debaser](#): > > Obama was rude an insulting in speaking to small business owners as he did. > [@Debaser](#): > > all the parts that are disparaging towards the business owners > [@Debaser](#): > > It doesn’t share the spirit of Obama’s message at all. He’s not putting words in their mouths. He doesn’t chastise them. Are you saying that you did not say these things that I quoted? Overwhelming groupthink, insulting to small business owners, disparaging toward business owners, chastising them. Yup, that about covers it. So which part are you claiming that you didn’t say? You really should own your own words. When you act aghast that someone calls you on it and insinuate that they are making things up and call them crazy, instead of actually defending your words, it makes you look like you are trying to avoid taking responsibility for what you’ve said. So again, try looking at the issue dispassionately for once, you may be surprised by what you see when your passion against Obama isn’t clouding your perception so badly. I mean do you really think that Obama hates small businesses for some reason? If so, what would that reason be? I know why republicans would like for everyone to think that he feels this way. That’s easy, its election season. But why would Obama hate small businesses in reality? What’s the motivation? Does this somehow make sense to you, because I just don’t see it. But I’m also not blinded by hate for Obama, so maybe that’s why I can’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/476 "2012-07-24T17:30:52Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Olympians are amateurs. The idea of an amateur “giving back” is a bit silly. So its silly how Michael Phelps gives back with his foundation, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread? > [@](#): > > Now imagine in your hypothetical that you’re speaking about multi-millionaire NBA players and the need for them to contribute to local youth athletics programs. **Imagines** Yep. Still insulting. If someone said that to NBA players I would assume that person didn’t think too highly of them. Just like I don’t think Obama thinks to highly of business owners. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/477 "2012-07-24T17:35:30Z")
I’d like to just add, I think it would be fine for Obama or some other President to ask people to contribute to the greater good through voluntary donation, like the people in **Cheesesteak’s** example. I think there’s still a line on the income tax form where one can give extra money to the government. Let him get on TV and appeal to the _conscience_ of the wealthy. Perhaps people like Gates or the late Steve jobs would respond with a billion dollar check to reduce the debt. God knows that all his wealthy friends in Hollywood would jump at the chance to contribute to the greater good, right? Well, after they are done contributing to Obama, of course. Aside: The Obama Campaign discovered a new political low when the recently asked people to forego things like wedding gifts and have the money go to his campaign instead. Wow. That’s one narcissistic mofo. But, it is his right to _ask_. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/478 "2012-07-24T17:50:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As I’ve said more than once, he’s trying to build a narrative that minimizes individual initiative and talent and replace it with praise for what the collective provides…the baseline. I can’t quarrel with most of the rest of your post. But the above wrong though. I’d say that his rhetoric taps into a tradition that doesn’t _minimize_ individual initiative and talent, but rather, corrects against _overemphasis_ of it. Why do you think he tries to make these things seem _of no importance_ rather than thinking he tries to make these things seem _less important than some people think they are_? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/479 "2012-07-24T17:51:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So its silly how Michael Phelps gives back with his foundation, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread? > > **Imagines** > > Yep. Still insulting. If someone said that to NBA players I would assume that person didn’t think too highly of them. Just like I don’t think Obama thinks to highly of business owners. Yet it would seem perfectly appropriate to me. It would only be “insulting” if said NBA players had an overinflated sense of their own significance. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/480 "2012-07-24T18:00:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I can’t quarrel with most of the rest of your post. But the above wrong though. I’d say that his rhetoric taps into a tradition that doesn’t _minimize_ individual initiative and talent, but rather, corrects against _overemphasis_ of it. Why do you think he tries to make these things seem _of no importance_ rather than thinking he tries to make these things seem _less important than some people think they are_? I didn’t say he trying to say they’re of no importance. I said he’s trying to _minimize_ it. As far as what the correct emphasis should be, I think we’ll probably simply disagree on that. But tPresident has that Bully Pulpit and he can craft a narrative for the country. The one he is crafting is NOT helpful. It creates less of the real causal link between initiatve and doing something amazing, which will then benefit society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=25)