# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/541 "2012-07-25T14:46:35Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I do not have to use only words that you have previously used in your posts to reply to you. I haven’t said you do. I don’t object to differing opinions, or honest attempts to paraphrase another’s argument. But, you’ve repeatedly made up statements that bear little to no resemblance to what I’ve posted, despite my requests to stop. It’s real. You are actually doing it. Go back and read the posts. It’s there for you to see. You might learn from it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/542 "2012-07-25T14:47:22Z")
**Marley23:** I’ve disengaged with him now. I won’t be replying to him in this thread again. Apologies again for my part in this unproductive thread tangent. Consider it over as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/543 "2012-07-25T17:22:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. Do you have a number in mind? ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/544 "2012-07-25T18:21:34Z")
“The individual is nothing; the collective is everything.” Karl Marx OR Barrack Obama OR The Borg Queen. Take your pick; they’re pretty much interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/545 "2012-07-25T18:40:04Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Fuck me, this thread is still here? You’re now hinging on whether one or the other was _glorifying_ the concept? > > Holy shit. > > I’m a small business. We (Mrs. Devil and I are partners) have been hiring and using an array of subcontractors during the past few years, and have grown our business during a horrid economic climate. Long, long hours in the office, often sleeping two to four hours a night for a few weeks on to shepherd projects through. Backbreaking effort that is still going on. > > I can crow about our achievements and beam with pride at the dividends our sweat equity is paying. Every word, every project, every deal, every sacrifice we’ve made is coming back to us many times over as clients and institutions have come to rely on our services. It’s _our_ reputation, one that _we_ built. > > But because I’m not a political hack, I can simultaneously exalt and _ **glorify** _ those people and institutions that made this possible. Whether it’s the specific teachers, guidance counselors or financial aid workers who helped make it possible for a high school dropout to get an Ivy League education or Tim Berners-Lee (et al) who made it possible for us to run our business out of our home or holy shit the list goes on. > > No longer a high school sophomore obsessed with Ayn Rand, I can easily recognize that however grand my–or anyone else’s–accomplishments are, they wouldn’t have been possible without an army of public and private institutions and people. Fuck yeah these people should be _glorified_, and if it’s a matter of recognizing that a portion of my income should go to society so my Dudeling and his Dudelings will have equal opportunities to maximize their potential, so be it. Doing so doesn’t detract from our accomplishments, and doesn’t mean we’re some bastardized and politically expedient version of socialist. Standing Ovation! > [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > “The individual is nothing; the collective is everything.” > Karl Marx OR Barrack Obama OR The Borg Queen. Take your pick; they’re pretty much interchangeable. And in spite of saying the exact same thing, Mitt Romney is inexplicably excluded from your list. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/546 "2012-07-25T18:54:28Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > “The individual is nothing; the collective is everything.” > Karl Marx OR Barrack Obama OR The Borg Queen. Take your pick; they’re pretty much interchangeable. Funny, when I do a Google search for that quote it comes up almost exclusively on Conservative websites. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/547 "2012-07-25T21:31:39Z")
I was thinking of feeling bad for the President given that he was taken out of context, but then I remembered how he used “The fundamentals of the economy are strong” against John McCain. Again and again and again. So I figure it’s karma. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/548 "2012-07-25T22:05:12Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Fuck me. > > You what what I think of people like you? > > You are the true god damned representative of the American dream. Fuck yeah. > > Reading a thread like this depresses the everloving crap out of me - but then I realise that there is actually some sensible and intelligent people around. Fuck me. Agreed. That this stupid conversation over an intentional misunderstanding is still ongoing is a sad commentary on the disfunctionality of our discourse. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/549 "2012-07-25T22:11:05Z")
Well, the President wanted to make the election about unimportant crap, so now Romney’s obliging him. When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter, like an economic program, the deficit, etc., then I’m sure Romney will be willing to have that debate. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/550 "2012-07-26T00:46:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, the President wanted to make the election about unimportant crap, so now Romney’s obliging him. > > When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter, like an economic program, the deficit, etc., then I’m sure Romney will be willing to have that debate. Please show me where the President said he “wanted to make the election about unimportant crap.” I am unaware of this policy position. However, regarding his economic program, etc., I would like to direct you to [this website.](http://www.barackobama.com/) The President lays out his positions on various issues right there. I’m not saying that anyone has to agree with him, but his positions are right there. How do you justify a suggestion like “When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter…”? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/551 "2012-07-26T00:48:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I was thinking of feeling bad for the President given that he was taken out of context, but then I remembered how he used “The fundamentals of the economy are strong” against John McCain. Again and again and again. > > So I figure it’s karma. > [@adaher](#): > > Well, the President wanted to make the election about unimportant crap, so now Romney’s obliging him. > > When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter, like an economic program, the deficit, etc., then I’m sure Romney will be willing to have that debate. If you’re going to drop a snarky little jab, you should limit yourself to once a page. When you do it twice in three posts, it just comes across as pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/552 "2012-07-26T00:49:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’ve explained the very real difference in what they were saying to you once. Here itt is again: Actually, no, it’s not. Romney was giving a litany of things that are a “given”, not trying to glorify them. Make believe Romney started the whole thing off with “Of course…”. > > They were making opposite points. The community organizer **was glorifying them** and the businessman **was acknowledging them as “givens”**. > > Those aren’t close to being the same thing. You’ve said this several times. What do you mean by “givens”? Given by whom? Given how? I don’t understand what this “glorifying them…acknowledging them as ‘givens’” means, and I would like to better understand your point, even if I may not agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/553 "2012-07-26T00:52:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you’re asking if we should cut spending, yes. Well, that’s one way, sure. However, not only would we not be paying for those needed resources, but we would also not be receiving those needed resources. Then what? I would be disappointed if there was not a road between my house and my job. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/554 "2012-07-26T00:56:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, the President wanted to make the election about unimportant crap, so now Romney’s obliging him. > > When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter, like an economic program, the deficit, etc., then I’m sure Romney will be willing to have that debate. What’s stopping Romney from talking about those things right now? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/555 "2012-07-26T01:39:11Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Please show me where the President said he “wanted to make the election about unimportant crap.” I am unaware of this policy position. > > However, regarding his economic program, etc., I would like to direct you to [this website.](http://www.barackobama.com/) The President lays out his positions on various issues right there. I’m not saying that anyone has to agree with him, but his positions are right there. How do you justify a suggestion like “When the President wants to talk about the issues that matter…”? You’re being way too literal.🙂 THe President didn’t SAY he wanted to campaign on unimportant crap, he just did. He’d rather talk about what Mitt Romney did at Bain Capital than about what he did as President. As for his economic plan, it’s on his website, but it’s not something he talks much about to the public. Mitt Romney’s plan is far more detailed, and I’m sure he’d love to talk about it vs. the President’s plan if the President wants to have that debate. I suspect the President would rather continue to debate trivialities though. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/556 "2012-07-26T01:42:40Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What’s stopping Romney from talking about those things right now? The debate is about whatever the candidates and the media want to talk about at any given time. The President ditched his teleprompter, said something he really shouldn’t have, so right now the election is about that. And will be until someone changes the subject. Hopefully one of these guys will change the subject to something substantive, or the media will do its job and shift the conversation to their economic plans, but I’m not counting on that happenined due to the shallowness of the two candidates and the mainstream media. Chances are, we’ll be talking about Mormonism soon, followed by new revelations about the President’s childhood. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/557 "2012-07-26T01:48:49Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > If you’re going to drop a snarky little jab, you should limit yourself to once a page. When you do it twice in three posts, it just comes across as pathetic. Well of course the President was talking about economic policy, and why he wanted to raise taxes,. the importance of taxes and how they are used. So not only was the jab “snarky”, I would also have to question what he was reading into it, and what he considers worthy of debate. I would also bet that el prezidente would be quite happy to compare his record as president, what he has achieved and done and focus on this rather than what Romney didn’t do at Bain. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/558 "2012-07-26T02:03:19Z")
He’s outspent Romney 4-1 the last couple of months. He’s had every opportunity to talk about what he wants to talk about. He could talk about health care, the stimulus, foreign policy, the deficit, taxes, anything. he chose to spend it talking about Bain. At least what we’re talking about now addresses the philosophical differences between the parties. This is a debate we should be having. Not over his exact comments, which were not very articulate, but the general idea. What makes people successful? Individual initiative, or the government? Let’s ask immigrants from oppressive countries why the bridges and roads didn’t make them rich back home, but they do well over here. Let’s ask them what the difference is between say, the US and the old Soviet Union? Was it bridges and schools and hospitals? Or was it individual liberty? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/559 "2012-07-26T02:24:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The debate is about whatever the candidates and the media want to talk about at any given time. The President ditched his teleprompter, said something he really shouldn’t have, so right now the election is about that. And will be until someone changes the subject. And what’s stopping Romney from changing the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/560 "2012-07-26T02:27:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’re being way too literal.🙂 > > THe President didn’t SAY he wanted to campaign on unimportant crap, he just did. He’d rather talk about what Mitt Romney did at Bain Capital than about what he did as President. > > As for his economic plan, it’s on his website, but it’s not something he talks much about to the public. Mitt Romney’s plan is far more detailed, and I’m sure he’d love to talk about it vs. the President’s plan if the President wants to have that debate. I suspect the President would rather continue to debate trivialities though. What makes Bain unimportant? Romney claims that his best qualification for President is his experience at Bain. He has claimed to have burnished his business acumen there and that he will apply the lessons learned to the office of the President. Obama and others have brought up questions about that experience. If Romney claims to bring his business skills to the job, then it is reasonable to inquire about those skills. If you were in an ordinary job interview and claimed that experience at a previous employer qualified you for the job being sought, wouldn’t you expect a few questions about that experience? If your previous employer had done some really crappy stuff while you were (at least on paper) running the place, wouldn’t it be reasonable for your prospective employer to ask about that? It seems to me that it would be irresponsible to ignore issues about Romney’s experience at Bain when he is claiming that that very experience is his most important quality. As far as his economic plan, take a gander at the title of this very thread. Wasn’t Obama talking about his economic plan when he made the statement that the OP placed in discussion? Just because you don’t like his plan doesn’t mean he wasn’t talking about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=29)