# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/621 "2012-07-26T20:04:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think HE thought he was making an important point. it does not seem that this was a throwaway statement. > > Either he said something important, or he did not. If he was trying to make an important point, it was stupid. If he was just stating the obvious, it was banal. > > Seems to me that he tried to say something important, it came out wrong, and for damage control purposes he’d rather everyone just think it was banal. Well, I don’t speak for him, but I’d go with pretty banal. Like most political speeches. ---
**Author:** ![HansGrosse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@HansGrosse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HansGrosse)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/622 "2012-07-26T20:04:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’re not really talking about wasteful spending so much as spending that does not contribute to people’s success. We may like having Medicare and Social Security and food stamps because we want to be compassionate, but those do not contribute much, if any, to success. We had success before we had those things. Those things have ameliorated poverty, but they have not increased the number of people who excel. > > We don’t need more tax revenue to fund infrastructure. We need more tax revenue to save the entitlement state. Which is another reason the President’s argument makes no sense. If he was being honest, he’d just say that successful people need to pay more to make less successful people’s lives easier. So when you’re born into a poor family that can’t afford anything, they’re not worth spending money on because it’s not directly funding something that “contributes to success”? It’s easier to be successful when you have clean streets, food on the table, a protective police force, an all-encompassing legal system, an opportunity to go to school, etc. If you’re instead spending your time working 4 jobs because you can’t eat otherwise, that’s a problem. Paying for infrastructure is a huge underlying engine for generating success, so I don’t know what you’re talking about here. I find this “entitlement state” rhetoric to be amusing. Rich people think the poor feel “entitled” to things like food and basic health care, and yet simultaneously think they, the rich, are entitled to take advantage of an entire country’s infrastructure without paying for it – only this isn’t called “entitlement.” The door swings both ways. It’s not about “entitlement.” It’s about keeping each other afloat so everyone has the opportunity to get ahead, get educated, be healthy, add value, and live a fulfilling life. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/623 "2012-07-26T20:05:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well some people don’t like the idea of our elderly and our children born to less fortunate circumstances dying sick and penniless in the street. That’s why we started these programs in the beginning. I’d call Grandma being able to retire and live out her senior years with dignity and our poor children not starving to death in an alley like some third world hell hole a success, wouldn’t you? > > Do you really want to go back to Oliver Twist times? With all 4 grandparents living at your house if they’re lucky enough to have relatives to take them in that is? I agree with you, but that’s not the argument the President was making. He said we should support higher taxes because we need infrastructure for successful people to be successful. Which would be valid if that’s actually where the money would go. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/624 "2012-07-26T20:06:45Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > No, it seems to be that people are reading in exactly what they want to see to support their preconceived notions of what he thinks and believes. > > If you already believe that he is a socialist state loving communist who loves taxes as high as possible, then you’ll see these preposterous ideas reflected in almost everything he says. Your perception is clouded by your personal views. If what you’re saying is objectively true, then why do so many people not see what you are seeing? And likewise, if you believe Mitt Romney is a bloodsucking robber baron, that will color everything you hear him say. ---
**Author:** ![HansGrosse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@HansGrosse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HansGrosse)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/625 "2012-07-26T20:06:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with you, but that’s not the argument the President was making. He said we should support higher taxes because we need infrastructure for successful people to be successful. Which would be valid if that’s actually where the money would go. He’s saying we should support higher taxes because the revenue is needed to pay for infrastructure that ultimately benefits society as a whole, and this allows success to breed and grow. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/626 "2012-07-26T20:08:52Z")
> [@HansGrosse](#): > > So when you’re born into a poor family that can’t afford anything, they’re not worth spending money on because it’s not directly funding something that “contributes to success”? > > It’s easier to be successful when you have clean streets, food on the table, a protective police force, an all-encompassing legal system, an opportunity to go to school, etc. If you’re instead spending your time working 4 jobs because you can’t eat otherwise, that’s a problem. Paying for infrastructure is a huge underlying engine for generating success, so I don’t know what you’re talking about here. > > I find this “entitlement state” rhetoric to be amusing. Rich people think the poor feel “entitled” to things like food and basic health care, and yet simultaneously think they, the rich, are entitled to take advantage of an entire country’s infrastructure without paying for it – only this isn’t called “entitlement.” > > The door swings both ways. It’s not about “entitlement.” It’s about keeping each other afloat so everyone has the opportunity to get ahead, get educated, be healthy, add value, and live a fulfilling life. I agree that we need a safety net, but the issue is whether that safety net contributes to individuals’ success. On anti-poverty measures for the young, maybe, maybe not. On one hand, they may improve the health of the poor, but on the other, it may reduce drive and encourage sloth. However, on entitlements for the elderly, there is no dispute: these programs do not contribute to individual success in any way. They are purely a safety net, and they are the primary driver of our deficit problem. Which means that all new money raised will go to shore up programs for the elderly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/627 "2012-07-26T20:11:04Z")
> [@HansGrosse](#): > > He’s saying we should support higher taxes because the revenue is needed to pay for infrastructure that ultimately benefits society as a whole, and this allows success to breed and grow. And that’s not going to happen absent a plan to reform entitlements. Until we do, all of that money will go to keep that going. Tax raisers have been using the same arguments since time immemorial. They point to something we need, and then say the money will go to that. Then they raise 10 times more than what they need, use the 1/10th to build the thing, and use the other 9/10ths on various other things. Anyone who has paid rent knows how this works. “I had to raise your rent, we need to fix the pool.” Then the pool is fixed, but your rent stays up. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/628 "2012-07-26T20:12:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree that we need a safety net, but the issue is whether that safety net contributes to individuals’ success. On anti-poverty measures for the young, maybe, maybe not. On one hand, they may improve the health of the poor, but on the other, it may reduce drive and encourage sloth. > > However, on entitlements for the elderly, there is no dispute: these programs do not contribute to individual success in any way. They are purely a safety net, and they are the primary driver of our deficit problem. Which means that all new money raised will go to shore up programs for the elderly. The elderly, and the young (especially those who survive until adulthood) are all consumers. Consumers are where the money comes from that make business successful and profitable. If noone but those born into a wealthy family survive and get an education, then who is going to buy all of the products the rich are selling? You can’t make money without anyone to give it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/629 "2012-07-26T20:17:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’re not really talking about wasteful spending so much as spending that does not contribute to people’s success. We may like having Medicare and Social Security and food stamps because we want to be compassionate, but those do not contribute much, if any, to success. We had success before we had those things. Those things have ameliorated poverty, but they have not increased the number of people who excel. Sure it does. People argue that even a small increase in tax rates will discourage investments. Investments are a balance of risk vs. reward. For those investments that are right at the margin, That extra bit of the reward that would be paid in taxes changes the decision. A risk that might pay off in $1,000,000 might not be worth it for just $950,000. By the same token, programs like Medicaid and food stamps lower the risk. Someone might not start a business if failure meant his children would starve. Take away that worst-case scenario and the risk/reward balance changes. It will push some marginal cases from bad decisions to good. Some of those people will excel who would not otherwise have tried. ---
**Author:** ![HansGrosse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@HansGrosse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HansGrosse)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/630 "2012-07-26T20:22:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree that we need a safety net, but the issue is whether that safety net contributes to individuals’ success. On anti-poverty measures for the young, maybe, maybe not. On one hand, they may improve the health of the poor, but on the other, it may reduce drive and encourage sloth. > > However, on entitlements for the elderly, there is no dispute: these programs do not contribute to individual success in any way. They are purely a safety net, and they are the primary driver of our deficit problem. Which means that all new money raised will go to shore up programs for the elderly. What part of my explanation did not make sense? You’re saying “the safety net might not contribute to an individual’s success” and I gave you a pretty clear example of how a safety net does contribute to success. Not providing help “because it would encourage sloth” when people are working hard just to make ends meet doesn’t really make much sense. That’s a talking point and by no means the majority. It certainly costs more to clean up after the damage caused by having kids not go to school than it is to put those kids in a classroom. Your argument is not an economical one – it’s ideological. Funding that infrastructure and safety net results in a net benefit on the whole. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/631 "2012-07-26T20:24:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Tax raisers have been using the same arguments since time immemorial. They point to something we need, and then say the money will go to that. Then they raise 10 times more than what they need, use the 1/10th to build the thing, and use the other 9/10ths on various other things. And tax cutters say, “Oh, this is just a temporary tax cut, to stimulate the economy”, then they moan and groan if it isn’t extended indefinitely, and if it isn’t extended they call it a tax increase. Meanwhile, the public debt grows, because the tax cutters never bothered to offset the tax cuts, and by the way, should we really prosecute two land wars in Asia at the same time we are cutting taxes? Yeah, we all know how that works. ---
**Author:** ![HansGrosse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@HansGrosse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HansGrosse)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/632 "2012-07-26T20:28:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > and by the way, should we really prosecute two land wars in Asia It’s better than going up against a Sicilian when death is on the line, at least! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/633 "2012-07-26T21:08:40Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The elderly, and the young (especially those who survive until adulthood) are all consumers. Consumers are where the money comes from that make business successful and profitable. > > If noone but those born into a wealthy family survive and get an education, then who is going to buy all of the products the rich are selling? > > You can’t make money without anyone to give it to you. There was no shortage of successful people before Social Security. You’re making a reasonable argument that doesn’t really hold up empirically. Seniors are not considered worth marketing to for most products and services. Unless you make a living primarily catering to that demographic, they aren’t contributing much to your success. Most of the money is made in the 18-49 demographic. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/634 "2012-07-26T21:12:22Z")
> [@HansGrosse](#): > > What part of my explanation did not make sense? > > You’re saying “the safety net might not contribute to an individual’s success” and I gave you a pretty clear example of how a safety net does contribute to success. Not providing help “because it would encourage sloth” when people are working hard just to make ends meet doesn’t really make much sense. That’s a talking point and by no means the majority. > > It certainly costs more to clean up after the damage caused by having kids not go to school than it is to put those kids in a classroom. Your argument is not an economical one – it’s ideological. Funding that infrastructure and safety net results in a net benefit on the whole. The safety net does not keep kids in school. THe existence of public schools is water. The kids are the horse. You can’t make the drink it. And in any case, you two are making reasonable arguments that the President chose not to make. Like most politicians, he focused on infrastructure, which is how statists sell big government to the masses. Talking about entitlements doesn’t work, so they shy away from that topic when trying to justify activist government. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/635 "2012-07-26T21:16:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There was no shortage of successful people before Social Security. You’re making a reasonable argument that doesn’t really hold up empirically. Seniors are not considered worth marketing to for most products and services. Unless you make a living primarily catering to that demographic, they aren’t contributing much to your success. Most of the money is made in the 18-49 demographic. Tell that to the makers of viagra. So you don’t think a healthy consumer base is important for success then? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/636 "2012-07-26T21:20:18Z")
And the markers of Viagra primarily market to that demographic. Although it should be noted that in order for an elderly person to have Viagra, I have to be prevented from buying more manufactured goods than I otherwise would if I wasn’t paying a payroll tax. Jobs created in the pharmaceutical sector, jobs lost in the manufacturing sectors. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/637 "2012-07-26T21:33:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jobs created in the pharmaceutical sector, jobs lost in the manufacturing sectors. No Social Security, jobs lost in both sectors. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/638 "2012-07-26T21:33:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree that we need a safety net, but the issue is whether that safety net contributes to individuals’ success. Absolutely. Striving for success is like climbing a dangerous mountain. You can be bolder and more aggressive if you know you’ve got a rope around your waist. If you don’t have that rope, if the tiniest slip can send you plunging to your doom then every move you make will be cautious and timid. You’ll give up on your dream of climbing high and take comfort in the fact that you’ve still clinging to the cliff by your fingertips. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/639 "2012-07-26T21:34:57Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > No Social Security, jobs lost in both sectors. I’m not an economics expert, but no Social Security means more money in the pockets of working people, so it would seem that there would be no net change. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/640 "2012-07-26T21:37:34Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Absolutely. Striving for success is like climbing a dangerous mountain. You can be bolder and more aggressive if you know you’ve got a rope around your waist. If you don’t have that rope, if the tiniest slip can send you plunging to your doom then every move you make will be cautious and timid. You’ll give up on your dream of climbing high and take comfort in the fact that you’ve still clinging to the cliff by your fingertips. Eh, no, not really. To use your mountain analogy, the safety net insures that all that will happen if you fall is that you break every bone in your body. You just won’t die. A middle class person who loses his job and relies on the safety net loses everything except his life. That’s not nothing, knowing that you won’t die does make risktaking a little easier, but knowing that you’ll lose everything you’ve worked for and have to start completely over again is a pretty hard fall. In addition, the gains in risk taking due to the safety net are plausibly offset by the gains in sloth. If your life prospects are to work in minimum wage jobs your whole life, or you at least believe that’s all the future you have, wouldn’t it be easier to just not try in the first place? After all, you’ve got food and shelter, if you work you’ll still have just food and shelter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=33)