# "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503 "2012-07-17T08:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/81 "2012-07-17T17:26:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t follow your qualification. Can you explain when giving your life in service to your country is not heroic? You don’t follow it, or you don’t like it? Dying in a helicopter crash, for example, isn’t heroic. Not all death in military service is heroic. The military has awards for heroism in combat, were every death heroic, there would be no need for such decorations. I’m not participating in a hijack, here. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/82 "2012-07-17T17:43:33Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > You don’t follow it, or you don’t like it? > > Dying in a helicopter crash, for example, isn’t heroic. Not all death in military service is heroic. The military has awards for heroism in combat, were every death heroic, there would be no need for such decorations. > > I’m not participating in a hijack, here. What’s your point? Hmm. Since we often refer to service members as heroes even if they haven’t died, I assumed that the term connoted our respect for them putting their lives on the line, even if they die in something so ho hum as a helicopter crash! I bring it up because this discussion of what others have contributed to make this country, and the idea raised by **Sateryn76** that the exact costs have already been paid off, so why should she pay any further? I can only think that we must value their willingness to put their lives on the line for something more than the value of their pay. I bring it up because recently on separate occasions, conservatives have said that it is “heroic” and “really American” to avoid paying taxes. Conservatives usually say that it is heroic to sacrifice your life for your country, so I am perplexed as to how both can be heroic, or otherwise laudable to avoid contributing some income. If we as a country fete those willing to give their lives for their country, why should we also fete those who would avoid paying a portion of their income for their country? Do we really think that service personnel (or indeed firefighters and first responders who put their lives on the line in service to the community) are just suckers? Or do we think that America is worth something more than that? And if it is worth a life to perpetuate it, how is it not worth 25%? I guess if you think it’s worth _someone else’s_ life, but not your money, I’d like to hear that. Perhaps this is a hijack, but to me it is part and parcel of recognizing that America is great because of the contributions of a lot of other people who came before me, and whatever I achieve here I do with the support that has been laid down before I came along. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/83 "2012-07-17T17:44:28Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I think what sticks in the craw is the idea that I should pay more for people who aren’t contributing much at all. They often get Earned Income Credit, which is a pay out above your tax obligation, they use “free” social services, they don’t pay their property taxes for years at a time and they don’t have cars, so they don’t pay gas taxes and the like. You are applying a moral standard where only practical standards belong. Regardless of whether they “deserve” the EIC, the fact is that if they don’t get one, they will kill you and all of your family and ruin all your stuff. Given this fact, you can either have them directly enslaved/enserfed, with all the inefficiency and overhead that entails, or throw them just enough of a bone to have the illusion of sustenance and independence. Your pick. Yes, I’m having one of those days… \*I do think they deserve it but I think it’s beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/84 "2012-07-17T17:51:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If you had an aunt who could look after your child, or a room over someone’s garage, these are benefits you didn’t come to solely on your own. And it would be informative to find out where the aunt got her resources, and follow the chain back. Good chance that somewhere along the way, no matter what direction you go, “gubmint programs” were involved… This is all not to mention the roads, the postal service, etc. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/85 "2012-07-17T17:53:01Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I’ll accept that that is his message…I think he chose a horrible way to frame it, though. No, you chose a horrible way to frame it. Trying to fit it within your pre-existing viewpoint you cropped off some of the most relevant parts. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/86 "2012-07-17T17:54:08Z")
Hey, I just heard Romney make the same point as the OP. He must read the SDMB. Plus, he must be dumb as fuck also. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/87 "2012-07-17T17:56:00Z")
Romney just jumped on this, saying Obama thinks Steve Jobs didn’t start Apple, Ray Kroc didn’t start MacDonalds, and Papa John didn’t start Papa John’s Pizza. Yet he says Obama is lying about him? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/88 "2012-07-17T18:08:26Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > The secret is not roads and education, it’s getting your shit together, IMO. May I ask what types of schools you went to for your education? Public, private, or religious schools? A little community college in there, private liberal arts, a technical school, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/89 "2012-07-17T18:10:45Z")
Why does Romney hate Woz? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/90 "2012-07-17T18:12:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Romney just jumped on this, saying Obama thinks Steve Jobs didn’t start Apple, Ray Kroc didn’t start MacDonalds, and Papa John didn’t start Papa John’s Pizza. > > Yet he says Obama is lying about him? This is a whoosh, right? Sorry to have to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/91 "2012-07-17T18:15:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is a whoosh, right? Sorry to have to ask. I’m sorry to report that’s exactly what Romney said. The bastard must never be allowed to achieve elected office. I’m beginning to think his dog refused to ride in the car with him. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/92 "2012-07-17T18:18:27Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > When I use the USPS, I pay per package, in addition to the tax dollars that go there. Please cite for me the federal budget line that provides tax money to the USPS. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/93 "2012-07-17T18:19:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is a whoosh, right? Sorry to have to ask. Double whoosh? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/94 "2012-07-17T18:21:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’m sorry to report that’s exactly what Romney said. The bastard must never be allowed to achieve elected office. I’m beginning to think his dog refused to ride in the car with him. Aren’t Ray Kroc and Steve Jobs particularly bad examples of building a business oneself? McDonald’s existed before Kroc got involved, and as Merneith noted someone else was integral to Apple’s beginning. Sure, the role of existing infrastructure is a separate matter, but these just seem like bad choices for exemplars. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/95 "2012-07-17T18:23:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please cite for me the federal budget line that provides tax money to the USPS. You know that USPS runs significantly in the red, and has for years, right? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/96 "2012-07-17T18:24:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Aren’t Ray Kroc and Steve Jobs particularly bad examples of building a business oneself? McDonald’s existed before Kroc got involved, and as Merneith noted someone else was integral to Apple’s beginning. > > Sure, the role of existing infrastructure is a separate matter, but these just seem like bad choices for exemplars. He also used the example of Bill Gates and Microsoft.Wonder how Paul Allen feels about that? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/97 "2012-07-17T18:30:15Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > He also used the example of Bill Gates and Microsoft.Wonder how Paul Allen feels about that? Well, that and the creator of what became MS-DOS, which Gates bought from someone else. Surely Gates owes his success to the fact that an infrastructure existed that helped to produce the primary key to his success. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/98 "2012-07-17T18:32:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Double whoosh? As of this moment, he’s on DOUBLE SECRET WHOOSHATION! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/99 "2012-07-17T18:35:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Hey, I just heard Romney make the same point as the OP. He must read the SDMB. Plus, he must be dumb as fuck also. Even if you’re talking about the post and not **Koxinga** , “dumb as fuck” is pretty insulting and you’re not in the Pit. This is a formal warning: don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503/100 "2012-07-17T18:40:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Even if you’re talking about the post and not **Koxinga** , “dumb as fuck” is pretty insulting and you’re not in the Pit. This is a formal warning: don’t do this again. I meant both. Warning accepted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that-somebody-else-made-that-happen/628503.md?page=6)