# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/181 "2003-03-11T03:18:48Z")
Well, I’m sorry, **pantom** , then I appologize. I don’t agree with the governing of the church either, but that’s not what **december** is trying to say. He’s saying that John Paul II is anti-Semitic and supporting Saddam. And all because the man is against war. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/182 "2003-03-11T03:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **My participation in that thread has been to be critical of the way december is treated for being december…** I almost hate to tell you this Weirddave, but “that thread” is “this thread.” Please try to pay attention to _where_ you spew your nonsense. This thread exists because december chooses to ignore the distinction between pitworthy, and non-pitworthy tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/183 "2003-03-11T03:46:26Z")
Hmm. You’re right. I swiched “this” and “that”. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/184 "2003-03-11T03:47:24Z")
Apology accepted. And I apologize too. (That goes for you too, **Coldfire**.) Even further, I went back & reread that page of the thread yet again (freakin thing is burned into my brain by now), and I have to say it was pitworthy. Sigh. I actually had to leave the room to change my mind. My ego got in the way. BTW: et tu, **Scylla**? (Sorry, don’t know the Greek for that.) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/185 "2003-03-11T06:25:47Z")
Have to concur. **Mtgman** , that was an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/186 "2003-03-11T11:29:35Z")
When I’m taken to task in The Pit, I don’t like the insults one bit. …But I’ll keep my ideals, …Despite how bad it feels. For defence, I’ll use side-spitting wit. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/187 "2003-03-11T12:09:20Z")
Incidentally, [Christopher Hitchens in the current _Slate_ harshly criticized the Vatican position on Iraq.](http://slate.msn.com/id/2079860/). > [@](#): > > …The papal envoy to Iraq, Cardinal Etchegaray, has told us that Saddam Hussein “is doing everything to avoid war.” With the addition only of a qualifying “this” as its penultimate word, that statement would actually have the merit of being true. I think we can all agree that Saddam likes the status quo to be undisturbed by any violence that is not his own. > > …This solicitude for the feelings of pro-Saddam Muslims—of whom the leading faction is constituted by al-Qaida—is new for Holy Mother Church. More recently, the pope himself met with Tariq Aziz, who has for many years been the Christian (actually Chaldean Catholic) face of an openly national-socialist party. On these and other grounds, Aziz had a friendly audience with his holiness before going to pose as a pacifist in St. Francis’ old praying-ground at Assisi. Tariq Aziz’s son was recently sentenced to 20 years in an Iraqi jail by Saddam Hussein—an effective means of reminding Saddam’s suave envoy who is boss. (He does that all the time, by the way.) The Holy Father really ought to have asked to hear Aziz’s confession. But perhaps he couldn’t spare the time for such an arduous undertaking. > > One wonders what it would take for the Vatican to condemn Saddam’s regime. Baathism consecrates an entire country to the worship of a single human being. Its dictator has mosques named after himself. I’m not the expert on piety, but isn’t there something blasphemous about this from an Islamic as well as a Christian viewpoint? I suppose if Saddam came out for partial-birth abortions or the ordination of women or the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle he might be hit with a condemnation of some sort. (Until recently, one might have argued that his abuse of children would get him in hot water with the Vatican, too. But even that expectation now seems vain.) > > In one way, the church’s “peace at any price” policy is a historical improvement. The last instance I can find of Rome supporting a war was when it blessed Gen. Franco’s invasion of Spain, at the head of an army of Muslim mercenaries who were armed and trained by Hitler and Mussolini. And everybody knows of the crusades, which were launched against Christian heretics as well as against Muslims and (invariably) the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/188 "2003-03-11T12:30:44Z")
I’m going to have to agree with **Guin** here regarding the limericks. The _fucking_ limericks. Just to sum it up, I give you a short overview of **december** ’s _Modus Operandi_. [ul][li]Post highly inflammatory OP, using either a selective quote from a trustworthy source, or an entire quote from a complete fruitcake source. [_]Make sure there are some backpaddling possibilities in inflammatory OP, so as to facilitate later weaseling and/or semantics games.[_]Depending on factual evidence behind the OP, select forum of choice. Hardly any evidence, or deliberately misinterpreted facts: GD. No fucking evidence whatsoever: the Pit.[_]When people call you on your OP, start Back Paddle Phase I. This phase usually involves adding new facts from (somewhat) credible cites, albeit typically misrepresented in some way. [_]When people still don’t buy your crap, start Back Paddle Phase II. This involves the much-loved semantics games: start selectively quoting people’s rebuttals, put words in their mouths, and claim they misinterpreted _your_ words. If necessary, start debating the meaning of common one-syllable words.[_]When the majority of the pack are still out for your blood, start using humour. A light-hearted joke, a friendly jab at one of the fuming moderators. Be sure to toss in the odd grin smilie or two.[_]As a last resort, use the _fucking_ limericks. You’re quite good at it, so it would be shame not to use them. Repeat until your adversaries are bored to such a degree that they just leave the thread.[_]When thread falls below the 20th position of the first forum page, select new topic and go back to step one.[_]Whatever you do, _don’t curse_, and **don’t call anybody any names**. As we all know, those are surefire signs of troll behaviour, and we don’t wanna be accused of THAT. Just be polite, pretend to provide cites for your ridiculous claims, and you’ll get away with murder.[/ul]Who said moderators couldn’t be critical of board policies and their applications?[/li] **pantom** , I’m glad you only thought I was disgusting for one hour and one minute. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/189 "2003-03-11T13:20:22Z")
My god, it’s the script for the **december-bot**. Be careful, **Coldfire** , you don’t want the Iraqis to get their hands on that. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/190 "2003-03-11T13:28:05Z")
So pissing people off is okay as long as limericks are involved? Kewl. I give you the Doper **december** , The poster most want to dismember! When dragged to the **Pit** , He will trot out his wit So his weaseling we won’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/191 "2003-03-11T13:31:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*My god, it’s the script for the **december-bot**. Be careful, **Coldfire** , you don’t want the Iraqis to get their hands on that. \*\* Welcome back, **minty**! We missed you. I agree that **Coldfire’s** analysis was not bad. Note that his last point could almost be re-stated as \*“ **december** obeys the rules of the message board.” \* :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/192 "2003-03-11T13:36:17Z")
That’s hardly a deep insight, and has already been mentioned earlier. Plus, I would guess that if **Coldfire** or one of the other mods thought you _weren’t_ following the rules of the message boards, you would have received a clear and unambiguous message to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/193 "2003-03-11T13:41:07Z")
Well, let’s just say that the staff have severely mixed feelings about **december** ’s tactics around these parts. Obviously, **december** is aware of our rules, and strives to operate within them as much as possible. It is, however, possible to fully operate within the rules and still piss the staff off in the long run. Say, four years or so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/194 "2003-03-11T14:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Why in God’s name would I bother??? Their minds are made up, just like december. The only way to learn from them is to watch the arguement develop and take points from both sides. Naturally you have at least one example of a “they”, or of the “liberal thought police” in action. You do, don’t you? Or are you just whining about something you’re imagining (a.k.a. lying)? Now put up or shut up - if you can do either one of those things. We’re waiting. Now, since you’re on that kick, let me point out that the person in question’s _political_ orientation is _not_ the topic here, although you may have failed to grasp that in your haste to denounce anyone who might upset your fragile worldview. He does an effective-enough job of discrediting those views himself without any help. No, friend, this is about ignorance itself, and its cousin bigotry. You want to _defend_ them? Not without a fight, not here. Actually, just read **coldfire** ’s latest for a good summary of the topic here - not a thing in it about political orientation, notice? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/195 "2003-03-11T14:32:34Z")
**december** , if THAT is what you call > [@](#): > > I’ll use side-spitting wit. I’d hate to see what you consider really bad wit. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/196 "2003-03-11T14:33:31Z")
> [@](#): > > In one way, the church’s “peace at any price” policy is a historical improvement. The last instance I can find of Rome supporting a war was when it blessed Gen. Franco’s invasion of Spain, at the head of an army of Muslim mercenaries who were armed and trained by Hitler and Mussolini. And everybody knows of the crusades, which were launched against Christian heretics as well as against Muslims and (invariably) the Jews. December, please. Do you really think that an article from an auhtor who simplifies the Spanish \*\* civil \*\* war in that way, counts as a credible source againts the Vatican. Invasion my ass, Franco was a general in Spanish africa, he didn’t invade anything. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/197 "2003-03-11T14:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\*December, please. Do you really think that an article from an auhtor who simplifies the Spanish \*\* civil \*\* war in that way, counts as a credible source againts the Vatican. Invasion my ass, Franco was a general in Spanish africa, he didn’t invade anything. \*\* I agree that the word “Invasion” inplies _entering_, so it doesn’t apply to Gen. Franco, who was already in Spain. OTOH much of his army did come from outside Spain, so the word “invasion” more accurately might apply to them. I don’t blame you for objecting to Hitchens’s snide oversimplification, but that’s his shtick. His fans enjoy that style of writing. I agree that Hitchens’s article isn’t conclusive evidence. My point in presenting it is to show that harsh criticim of the Vatican for its stance on Iraq is a defensible POV. It deserves refuting, rather than Pitting. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/198 "2003-03-11T15:12:25Z")
Harsh criticism is not the same as saying he condones the killing of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/199 "2003-03-11T15:19:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Harsh criticism is not the same as saying he condones the killing of Jews. \*\* **TwistofFate** , please look at what I actually wrote. ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/200 "2003-03-11T15:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*For defence, I’ll use side-sp[l]itting wit. \*\* You’re only half right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=11)