# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/21 "2003-03-08T02:14:29Z")
Well December if Dubya can use the preemptive strike doctrine so can the Pope. After all what happened with jesus? He was killed by the jews. Now we all know that the second coming is near and we all know that jewish will kill our saviour all over again if we give them half a chance. Therefore the only solution is the final solution, we’ll get them before they have the chance to kill our lord. We all know that the only good jew is the dead one!!! You see that is called trolling and it seems to be the only thing you are doing here lately. Let’s start with your comments regarding Pope Pio XII, your cite about his role during the holocaust is a very contoversial book, if I cared I could provide dozens of links to the other side of the story. A couple of facts: 1. Pio XII did denounce the nazi regime, goebbels was infurated b 2. The Pope couldn’t use his armies to protect the jewish. In fact he couldn’t even protect himself. All his powers back them (as it is today) is prestige, the history of his office, etc. We all know a fanatic like hitler didn’t want to hear the gospel back then just as another fanatic, your president, isn’t hearing the current pope today, fanatics don’t listen, they act. 3. The catholic church has a long history it has comitted hundreds of attrocities. At least it has learned from it mistakes and apologized, at the end that made it an stronger and better institution, unlike others (whom I won’t mention) that still in the 21 century think that god is with them and that they are the absolute good fighting absoulte evil. Second: > [@](#): > > Top Catholic Church officials have been unsparing in their public criticism of the U.S. for planning what Rome considers an immoral war. The Vatican has been resolutely unmoved by arguments based on Catholic just-war doctrine that defend war on Iraq. The pope’s top lieutenants continue hammering the U.S. and its coalition partners for contemplating what one of them called, in a typical formulation, “a crime against peace.” Two days ago, Catholics world-wide who obeyed the Holy Father’s request offered their Ash Wednesday fasts for peace. There is even talk that the pope could win the Nobel Peace Prize. You know nothing of the scholastic notion of just war, completed later by Victoria, etc that is the catholic doctrine regarding war. I do, I studied it in Law Philosophy, belive me Bush violation of not only the international law but also of the international order since at least the Westphalia peace has nothing to do with that notion. The later part of what you wrote is simply stupid, the pope as the leader of the catholic church can do what he wants with the ash wednesday, if he wants to consecrate it to peace then he can do it moreover I don’t know why you find that offensive. Alos I don’t know why do you care what the Pope does concerning his religion. Finally I am a catholic, granted I am in a non religious phase in my life but I still consider myself a catholic. Then, fuck you and fuck the horse that you have stuck in your wrinkle old ass. You are fun but comments like this are not worth the smiles. If there is any moderator in here I think it’s time to show december where is the door. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/22 "2003-03-08T02:29:07Z")
Oh, this is beautiful. **Apos** posts a snide little one-liner. **December** responds with a snide little one-liner. And now, the virtual queen of snide little one-liners feels the need to take the whole thing to the pit. Wake me up when you guys decide to get serious. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/23 "2003-03-08T02:32:14Z")
**december** , arguing that Pope Pius XII did too little to stop the Nazis is defendable. The debate still goes on 60 years down the line - I’m not blaming you for participating in it. Suggesting that John Paul II’s objections to a war on Iraq somehow equates supporting regimes that “murder the Jews” is **ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE**. Then again, what else is new. Fucking twit. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/24 "2003-03-08T02:34:55Z")
**zigaretten** -Virtual Queen of Snide Little One-Liners? What do you mean? Of course, if you are trying to insult me, you failed. I think I’ll put that title in my sig now. Snide little one liners are one things. Accusing someone of being anti-semitic and purposely trying to destroy the Jews is quite another. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/25 "2003-03-08T03:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > [B Accusing someone of being anti-semitic and purposely trying to destroy the Jews is quite another. :rolleyes: \*\* He didn’t say, that, though. He said “The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews.” That’s not the same thing. Well, it’s literally true that the Ba’ath regime in Iraq has murdered Jews, so the only question is whether or not Pope John Paul II supports the regime. I’d say it depends on what you mean by “support,” but it’s not an entirely outrageous statement. JPII does appear to be supporting the right of said regime to continue to exist. The statement is literally true, is it not? It’s a very mild level of support, to be sure, and I’m sure it’s not the Pope’s intent to support the murder of Jews. So while the IMPLICATION is wrong, the statement is literally true. I don’t think Roman Catholics should be too quick to forget the vast number of Jews our Church has murdered or helped to murder. It’s worth being a little sensitive to. Of course, using that loose standard of “support,” the United States has supported any number of murderous, homicidal regimes, so **december** you have to be careful about throwing stones. Or else I could say: The United States supports a regime that murders Tibetans. The United States supports a regime that murders Timorese. The United States supports a regime that murders its own women. The Bush Administration supports a regime that murders Indians. All literally true. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/26 "2003-03-08T03:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > [B > Suggesting that John Paul II’s objections to a war on Iraq somehow equates supporting regimes that “murder the Jews” is **ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE**. > > Then again, what else is new. Fucking twit. \*\* Yep, by that logic there are quite a few Jews out there, myself included, who support regimes that murder the Jews. In fact, every single Jew I’ve discussed the issue with IRL. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/27 "2003-03-08T03:18:20Z")
**RickJay** , my point is, **december** loves to tell people if they don’t support Israel one hundred and ten percent, they are anti-semitic. Or if they disagree with Bush even slightly, they’re unAmerican and supporting traitors. Yes, the church has behaved abominably in the past. However, his accusations are NOT credible, and his insinuation that John Paul is SUPPORTING Saddam himself-that’s just assanine. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/28 "2003-03-08T03:26:01Z")
One thing I have admired in december is his consistency. The themes of feminism, Arabs/Muslims, Israel/Palestine, Bill Clinton/Jimmy Carter, tort lawyers, political correctness, Democrats, How-Democrats-play-games, How-Democrats-keep-minorities-down yadda yadda yadda have been played out in so many threads, and despite listening to all arguments, and sometimes changing his own OP or toning down what he originally said, he WILL emerge with a new OP culled from one of the above themes, unchanged and pure (of course once a little time elapses) Hats off to you, Sir! ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/29 "2003-03-08T03:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***december** I hope the mods ban your troll ass and soon, you fuckwidget. \*\* > [@](#): > > Q: What should I do when I see a user “trolling” at the SDMB? > A: Do not publicly accuse someone of trolling at the SDMB. Use the “Report this post to a moderator” facility below the “trolling” post. Do not reply to the troll in any way in the thread, that will only encourage the troublemaker. MODS, is there now a **December** exception to this rule? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/30 "2003-03-08T03:58:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > Suggesting that John Paul II’s objections to a war on Iraq somehow equates supporting regimes that “murder the Jews” is \*\*ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE. \*\* Let’s take this objection one step at a time. First, I assert that Saddam and his henchmen murder Jews. I base this on the fact that they provide financial support and encouragement to the terrorists who do the killings. They also conducted unprovoked, deadly rocket attacks on Israel in 1991. Of course, they also murder and torture their own citizens and have killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians and many Kuwaitis. They are a terrible regime. So, I think it’s fair to say that Saddam and his regime murder Jews, among others. And, obviously various Palestinians have committed many mass murders of Israelis – [the latest one a bus bombing that killed at least 15 people and wounded 40 others, just two days ago.](http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030305-101438-3542r) [Yet, the Pope met with one of the top leaders of this fiendish Iraqi regime, Tarik Aziz. Aziz was also permitted to conduct a press conference on Vatican grounds.](http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030305-101438-3542r) > [@](#): > > John Paul II has put those resources to work to try to stop a war in Iraq, and in mid-February that activity reached a crescendo, with visits by Iraqi Vice Premier Tariq Aziz, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, plus an extraordinary mission to Baghdad by papal emissary Cardinal Roger Etchegaray… > > In this diplomatic blitz, the Vatican has struggled to remain above the political fray, calling equally on the United States to stand down but also for Iraq to disarm. **Yet some Vatican rhetoric continues to be sharply critical of U.S. policy, and some symbolism surrounding the Aziz visit, especially the presence of an Eastern-rite Catholic bishop once convicted of running arms to the PLO, hinted at an anti-U.S., anti-Israel tilt – if not in the Vatican, at least among some Catholic actors with whom the Vatican is collaborating.** … > > Aziz, a member of the Chaldean Catholic church, met with the pope Feb. 14, in a session scheduled for 15 minutes that actually lasted a half-hour. Aziz later saw Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo Sodano and Tauran. > > A Vatican statement said Aziz assured church officials “of the Iraqi government’s willingness to cooperate with the international community, particularly in regard to disarmament.”… > > **Yet Aziz did not project a consistently pacific image. In that news conference at the Foreign Press Club, he generated new controversy when he refused to take a question from a correspondent from Maariv, an Israeli daily. “When I came to this press conference, it was not my intention to take questions from the Israeli media,” Aziz said, flatly refusing to take the question even when asked to do so by the president of the club. Boos, whistles and some walkouts ensued, though the news conference went forward…** > > During his half-day visit to Assisi, Aziz visited the tomb of St. Francis and was given a replica of one of the lamps lit last Jan. 24, when leaders of the world’s religions joined John Paul II in Assisi to pray for peace. He was also shown the ivory horn that St. Francis received in Egypt in 1219-1220, when Francis met with Sultan Melek el Kamel despite the bad blood generated by the Crusades. The horn is considered a symbol of Christian/Muslim understanding. > > \*\*One curious footnote to the Assisi visit was the presence alongside Aziz of Auxiliary Bishop Hilarion Cappuci… > > Some, however, might question Capucci’s credentials as a peacemaker. He was arrested by Israeli security forces in 1974 on his way back from a trip to Lebanon after his Mercedes sedan was found loaded with TNT and rifles headed for the Palestinian Liberation Organization. At the time Capucci belonged to Fatah, the Palestine Liberation Organization’s main faction, and was a member of the PLO’s parliament-in-exile. He was sentenced to 12 years in prison, but released in 1977 after a personal appeal from Pope Paul VI… \*\* > > Some observers suggested that Capucci’s presence in Assisi gave the visit an unavoidably political coloring. I do not know why the Vatican gave such respect to people like Tarik Aziz and Hilarion Cappuci, but they did so. In so doing, the Vatican did indeed provide support for certain groups who seek to murder Jews, as I claimed. As an aside, it’s mind-boggling that the Vatican’s apparently accepted Aziz’s statement that the Iraqi government was willing to cooperate with the international community, particularly in regard to disarmament. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/31 "2003-03-08T04:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*MODS, is there now a **December** exception to this rule? \*\* If not, there’s certainly a _need_ for one. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/32 "2003-03-08T04:22:36Z")
So, **december** , because the Pope invited Aziz over for a chat means he fully supports the Iraqi regime. I’m sure when he met up with the prime minister of the Netherlands a few years ago, that meant His Holiness was actively supporting legalised marijuana, hookers, abortion, and euthanasia. **december** , you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/33 "2003-03-08T04:27:27Z")
Don’t forget the time he went to Cuba to talk with Castro. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/34 "2003-03-08T04:29:42Z")
There we go. The Pope is obviously a joint smoking, baby murdering communist. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/35 "2003-03-08T04:35:19Z")
**Coldfire** you say it better that I could! And all that posted by **december** was something unrelated to the official position of the vatican: [http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=32389](http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=32389) > [@](#): > > By sending special emissaries to meet with the presidents of the United States and Iraq, John Paul II has not put Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush on the same level, a Holy See representative said. > > “It is an absurd position, as the Pope has always insisted on disarmament,” said Cardinal Roberto Tucci, a member of the administrative council of Vatican Radio, in response to media comments. > > “When sending Cardinal Roger Etchegaray to meet with Saddam Hussein, he took this message: an urgent request to take disarmament seriously, keeping in mind above all the evil he would bring on his own country and the innocent population, if he does not collaborate fully with the U.N. inspectors,” Cardinal Tucci said on Vatican Radio. > > “No, the Pope does not put them on the same level,” he said. “Moreover, he asks the heads of state [and] important people of the political world, to remember that in politics it is not possible to forget ethics or international law.” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/36 "2003-03-08T04:42:31Z")
And don’t forget the trip he took to Cuba a few years back. I’m not even going to _start_ to list the number of things _that_ implies, per **december’s rules of engagement**. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/37 "2003-03-08T04:45:25Z")
And don’t forget that before this, the Pope also met with Bush! That means he will be born again! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/38 "2003-03-08T04:47:47Z")
But Fidel _is_ a Communist. Most of you guys are too young to remember John XXIII. Now _there_ was a fucking Pope! He had the same quality of transcendent sweetness that the Dalai Lama has, like it really didn’t matter if there was a God or not, as long as men like him were possible. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/39 "2003-03-08T04:53:01Z")
Oh, Hell. Wrote that, then decided I didn’t want it to be my 9000th post. In the fifteen or so minutes it took to find another thread, all’at got posted. Forgot to preview. Buggerall. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/40 "2003-03-08T04:55:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*So, **december** , because the Pope invited Aziz over for a chat means he fully supports the Iraqi regime. > > I’m sure when he met up with the prime minister of the Netherlands a few years ago, that meant His Holiness was actively supporting legalised marijuana, hookers, abortion, and euthanasia. > > **december** , you’re an idiot. \*\* **Coldfire** , why did you change my statement by adding the word _“fully”_? Is it because you cannot refute the statement I actually made? I’m sure you don’t believe that the Dutch government is evil, like Saddam’s government. IMHO the Pope ought not to have accorded Tarik Aziz the honor of a visit with him nor the respect implicit in allowing him to conduct a press conference on Vatican grounds. The fact that he did so has the impact of legitimizing Saddam’s regime and enhancing world support for its continuation. And, what do you make of the fact that the Vatican got Hilarion Cappuci released from prison and invited him to visit along with Aziz? Cappuci was caught smuggling TNT into Israel. It seems likely that the TNT was intended for a bomb to be used against Israeli civilians, like the one two days ago. I don’t know why the Vatican stood up for this man, but it did happen. My statement was a recognition of this reality. **GIGObuster** , thank you for the cite. I’m sorry to say there’s an air of unreality about it. Cardinal Tucci said, “the Pope has always insisted on disarmament.” That may be true verbally; no doubt the Pope said to Aziz, “I insist on disarmament.” But Saddam has never cooperated with the UN, nor has he ever disarmed, nor is there any reason to believe he will do so. So, the Pope’s “insistance” on disarmament goes only as far as saying the words. In terms of action, the Pope has not insisted on Iraq’s disarmament. In his defence, one might observe that the Pope’s position is no more unrealistic than the official position of France, Germany and Russia… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=3)