# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/41 "2003-03-08T05:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **GIGObuster** , thank you for the cite. I’m sorry to say there’s an air of unreality about it. Cardinal Tucci said, “the Pope has always insisted on disarmament.” That may be true verbally; no doubt the Pope said to Aziz, “I insist on disarmament.” But Saddam has never cooperated with the UN, nor has he ever disarmed, nor is there any reason to believe he will do so. So, the Pope’s “insistance” on disarmament goes only as far as saying the words. In terms of action, the Pope has not insisted on Iraq’s disarmament. > \*\* What action you suggest he does? To send the Swiss Guard? It may be unreal to you but that is what is happening, this last defense of yours is what is unreal. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/42 "2003-03-08T05:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > - Posted by \*\*GIGObuster \*\* \* > > What action you suggest he does? To send the Swiss Guard? It may be unreal to you but that is what is happening, this last defense of yours is what is unreal. The Pope should get off his lazy butt and excommunicate Saddam, that’s what! That’ll fix him! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/43 "2003-03-08T05:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **zigaretten** -Virtual Queen of Snide Little One-Liners? > What do you mean? Of course, if you are trying to insult me, you failed. I think I’ll put that title in my sig now. That honestly wouldn’t surprise me. But then I actually believe that you really are that stupid. What would surprise me is if you, or **Coldfire** for that matter, actually addressed the issues that **December** has raised rather than simply blathering on with your totally unsubstantiated opinions which, quite frankly, I don’t give a damn about. **Has** the Pope condemned the possibility of war on Iraq? If so, has he offered any truly viable alternative that would remove Saddam from power? If not, isn’t he, in effect, supporting the continuation of Saddam’s regime **even if** he also condemns some of the actions of that regime? And didn’t Saddam, in Dec. of 2000, call for a “[Holy War](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/12/26/204715.shtml%5B/url) on Israel? Isn’t Saddam providing [$25,000](http://ads.specificpop.com/pop_code;gid=17,pid=328,bid=649%5B/url) to the families of people who **murder** Israeli civilians? Might it not behoove the Pope to take the strongest possible stand **against** such an “out of control” individual. If not, why not? Has the Pope ever actually condemned the “suicide bombers” in Israel, or has he merely “……expressed sorrow and worry over the news of the attacks……?” Hell, even Arafat condemned the bombings more strongly than that. Why did the Pope choose to meet with, and thus give legitimacy to, Ikrema Sabri after Sabri made comments along the lines of “……”a lot less” than six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis……” and “…….Israel had exaggerated the Holocaust for political purposes……” and “…….It’s not my fault if Hitler hated the Jews. Anyway, they hate them just about everywhere…….” And shouldn’t the Pope have condemned Sabri for these sorts of remarks as he was publicly asked to do by a group of [Jewish leaders and Holocaust scholors](http://www.ou.org/prez/jewishleaders.htm%5B/url)? Or is “holocaust denial” alright as long as it’s the Pope? I’m not saying that there are no arguments to rebut these points, but I’m sure not gonna hold my breath waiting for you to make ‘em, **Guinastasia**. Not as long as there’s a Pit to run to. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by GIGObuster_ > “When sending Cardinal Roger Etchegaray to meet with Saddam Hussein, he took this message: an urgent request to take disarmament seriously, keeping in mind above all the evil he would bring on his own country and the innocent population, if he does not collaborate fully with the U.N. inspectors,” **GIGObuster** , you’re making **December’s** point for him. If the Pope is actively working to encourage Saddam to take those actions which will ensure Saddam’s continuation in power, and you’re quote makes it clear to me that the Pope’s intent is to avoid war and, like it or not, that means Saddam stays in power; then isn’t he also supporting the continuance of the the current situation, even if, on some level he disapproves of that situation? Remember that **December’s** original argument was that opposition to the war has **the effect** of supporting Saddam’s regime **even though** the people involved **do not** have that intent. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/44 "2003-03-08T05:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*What action you suggest he does? \*\* The action I would suggest is to acknowledge that Saddam is not disarming, and that the world therefore has a thorny problem, with no ideal solution. The solution could involve military action, negotiations, threats, sanctions, etc. The difficultly of the problem is a good reason for the Vatican to recognize that its solution is not within their sphere of expertise. The problem has more than just a moral dimension. Here’s an interesting [article](http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110003166), which is critical of the Vatican. It contrasts the speed with which they took on issue of Iraq, which is peripheral to them, versus the slowness with which they are dealing with their own sex abuse scandal. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/45 "2003-03-08T05:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > I’m sure when he (_the Pope_) met up with the prime minister of the Netherlands a few years ago, that meant His Holiness was actively supporting legalised marijuana, hookers, abortion, and euthanasia. Actually, it **does** say to me that the Pope regards the government of the Netherlands as legitamate and acceptable. And that implies that he considers “legalised marijuana, hookers, abortion, and euthanasia” to be acceptable even though he may not approve. By extention, meeting with Iraqi envoys implies that the Pope regards the Iraqi government as “legitamate and acceptable.” Given that he is sending that message, shouldn’t the Pope do more to make it clear that he disapproves of things like “Holy War on Israel” or “suicide bombers?” He hasn’t shown any reluctance to publicly condemn Israeli actions of which he disapproves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/46 "2003-03-08T05:27:45Z")
“How many divisions does he have?” - Joseph Stalin ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/47 "2003-03-08T05:43:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*Remember that **December’s** original argument was that opposition to the war has **the effect** of supporting Saddam’s regime **even though** the people involved **do not** have that intent. \*\* That argument is still a false choice. And many others have taken that argument to task. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The action I would suggest is to acknowledge that Saddam is not disarming, and that the world therefore has a thorny problem, with no ideal solution. The solution could involve military action, negotiations, threats, sanctions, etc. The difficultly of the problem is a good reason for the Vatican to recognize that its solution is not within their sphere of expertise. The problem has more than just a moral dimension. > \*\* Indeed it is a moral dimension for a religious leader!! You fifth level of hell obtuse typist! And of course it is outside his sphere, but bringing that up is precisely what is illogical, the Pope cannot force anybody in this situation, it only gives advice, you are only attacking him and not the message that he brings! That is why being called a Troll is the least of your problems right now. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/48 "2003-03-08T05:44:37Z")
Again, not supporting a war(which will certainly cost lives on both sides) to remove a regime is not the same as supporting the regime. Not supporting a particular proposed potential solution is emphatically NOT the same as saying the situation is just peachy as it is. Except in your mind of course. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![LadyAvalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6a8cbe/32.png) [@LadyAvalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LadyAvalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/49 "2003-03-08T05:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > **Again, not supporting a war(which will certainly cost lives on both sides) to remove a regime is not the same as supporting the regime. Not supporting a particular proposed potential solution is emphatically NOT the same as saying the situation is just peachy as it is. Except in your mind of course.** I know what you’re saying, **mtgman** , and I agree completely. However, those who see the world in terms of black and white choices and simple “good vs. evil” dichotomies will never see that, unfortunately. That group seems to include Hussein, bin Laden, Bush, and **december** … such illustrious company he keeps! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/50 "2003-03-08T05:52:50Z")
**zigaretten** , you amuse me:) ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/51 "2003-03-08T05:56:11Z")
Sorry, that last post by **LadyAvalonian** was actually by me. I forgot my wife was logged in. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/52 "2003-03-08T06:35:02Z")
**Avalonian** , join the club. You watch … she’ll log in using stealth technology. You’ll _swear_ you were logged in, and then you’ll see five posts you made using her SN. By the time my SO gets to 200 posts probably one of every five of those will have been me posting as her accidentally. Even with using different browsers… ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/53 "2003-03-08T07:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > That argument is still a false choice. And many others have taken that argument to task. Sorry, I missed the part where “many others have taken that argument to task.” Assuming that you’re talking about the original thread, I see……. …….plenty of the all too typical “snide one-liners." …….several posts from people who would have appeared a lot more intelligent if they simply hadn’t posted. …….two posts supporting **December’s** original point. ……a number of posts which basically say “well I’m against the war and I don’t support Saddam, so there….” But which completely fail to address the actual point that **December** made in his OP. ……one person who appears to admit that they didn’t even read the entire OP. ……etc, etc, etc. I spot only a couple of actual attempts to deal with the “real” argument and I certainly don’t spot anything that “takes it to task.” But, given that it’s been almost 200 years since Burke said “all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” and, as far as I know, philosophers are still arguing over the implications; I kind of doubt you’re going to find closure in a SDMB thread. Still, I guess tossing around insults is a lot more fun than actually debating things, isn’t it? _“The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.” — Hannah Arendt_ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > zigaretten, you amuse me That’s my job. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/54 "2003-03-08T07:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > **Actually, it does say to me that the Pope regards the government of the Netherlands as legitamate and acceptable. And that implies that he considers “legalised marijuana, hookers, abortion, and euthanasia” to be acceptable even though he may not approve.** Yes, damn that John Paul II! How dare he associate with such ner-do-wells as the people of the Netherlands. Why Christ himself went out of his way to avoid prostitutes, outlaws, and social renegades. What kind Christian example does the Pope think he’s setting here?!? > [@](#): > > **it’s been almost 200 years since Burke said “all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” and, as far as I know, philosophers are still arguing over the implications; I kind of doubt you’re going to find closure in a SDMB thread.** And economic sanctions, weapons inspections, the “no-fly zone”, and all the other measures the international community is imposing on Iraq(not to mention EXTREME scrutiny) somehow equals “nothing” in your mind? Very interesting. Two people with completely off base definitions of common words like “support” and “nothing” in the same thread. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/55 "2003-03-08T07:31:38Z")
I wish to be the post of dissent! I have come to defend **december**. So many have called him a troll and requested the ultimate punishment for trolldom. I’m here to say that **december** is not a troll. A troll is a person who posts sentiments contrary to their beliefs (or inconsistent to their beliefs) in order to illicit a response. **december** does not do this. **december** actually _believes_ the crap he posts. Do you know what I really think about him? If only the rest of the conservative jerkoffs were as singleminded and empty in their beliefs. Us right-thinking individuals would crush that stupid semi-logic in record time. The truth is **december** is the left wing’s easily refutable poster boy. I’d hate it if we didn’t have him to kick around. ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/56 "2003-03-08T07:45:39Z")
And **december** is unfailingly polite about about it, unlike many of you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/57 "2003-03-08T07:49:45Z")
TO: Comrade **december** FROM: Commissar **elucidator** **Biggirl** has exposed your secret identity and mission. While it is possible that it may go unnoticed, the Central Committee has decided to close down your mission. Your successes in pretending to epitomize a right-wing chucklewit are admirable, but she has exposed your _agent provacatuer_ mission, albeit unwittingly. At your discretion, you may continue to undermine the running dogs captialist swine actuarial industry. However, we deem it advisable you shut down your **decembrist** identity at once. Still can’t believe they didn’t catch that! Yours in revolution, Commissar **elucidator** CC: Comrade **Stoid** Comrade **Xenophon 41** Secret Agent **Scylla** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/58 "2003-03-08T07:53:35Z")
**Zigaretten** , I see that this is the only way you have to defend december for the slur that has caused this pit thread, amusing, but just a muddle the water effort. It still remains a stupid statement. As for the other thread: “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” was a phrase the anti-war protesters took to hearth; surprisingly, I don’t agree with many or their positions but it is undeniable that they believe that what Bush is doing is not right but evil, in essence he has wasted all the 911 good will of the world by chasing the secondary target on a forced timeline. And ignoring more pressing treats. On that thread, Point 3 of **december** was: 3. Saddam cheered the anti-war demonstrations. He considered them to be supporting his regime. **Jshore** said: “So what! He’s fucked in the head. He also uses the U.S.'s aggressive stance toward him to try to fuel a sense of patriotism and desire to defend Iraq from the Iraqi people. Does that mean that such aggressive stances support Saddam? Totalitarian regimes use all the news to their advantage.” “The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.” — Hannah Arendt So what happens when you actually choose evil? Think about 911, how many WMD’s were used there that Sadam has now? The inspections are IMO saving soldier’s lives by destroying more of those weapons, even I who thinks a war could still be necessary, thinks only an idiot will drop the oportunity to pull more teeth of the tiger before the fight. **Biggirl** : Ok, then he is a Jerk, I can change my mind! 🙂 In any case: I want to make it clear that I was making notice that many are calling him a troll (not me) but that is not his bigger problem right now. **Klaatu** : what he said about the Pope was polite? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/59 "2003-03-08T09:25:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > **Zigaretten** , I see that this is the only way you have to defend december for the slur that has caused this pit thread, amusing, but just a muddle the water effort. It still remains a stupid statement. No…… **this** has nothing to do with the **december** “slur.” **This** concerns you’re suggestion that **december’s** original argument, and my subsequent restatement, has previously been “dealt with.” Is that really so complicated? Let me go over this again, since it appears that both **Mtgman** and yourself have completely missed my point (which may, admittedly, be due to bad communication on my part). **december’s** OP begins:” I know that almost all sincere Iraq war opponents believe that they oppose Saddam Hussein as well as opposing war. However, I maintain that they actually are supporting Saddam.” This is the key issue. This is what the debate is supposed to be about. It appears to me that **december** is admitting up front that most opponents of the war have “good” motives and are sincere about their motives. **But** , whether they like it or not, their opposition to the war has the effect of allowing Saddam to stay in power and that constitutes a form of support for Saddam. (You may want to actually look “support” up in the dictionary **Mtgman** , one of the many definitions is “to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of.” It doesn’t have to mean one “likes” something. And I don’t consider that to be an unusual use of the word.) That’s what Edmund Burke was talking about when he said “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” He’s discussing a moral (or ethical) dilemma. Is a person who fails to prevent evil guilty of supporting evil? This is what philosophers have been arguing about for years and this is a legitimate argument in the case of Iraq. (And arguing that one is doing “something,” though maybe not enough, just adds another dimension to the debate **Mtgman** , it doesn’t end it.) (Note that this is an issue that can deal with many cases other than Iraq, but when **december** starts the debate, he gets to define the territory.) This is the issue that nobody dealt with in the first thread. Oh sure, **Jshore** replied to one of **december’s** original three points supporting his argument, but I think that even you will admit that there is nothing in **Jshore’s** response that addresses the ethical dilemma which lies at the heart of **december’s** argument. You are finally coming close in your latest post. Arguing that opponents of the war are simply responding to a competing dilemma, namely that the war itself is “an evil” and that doing nothing to oppose that war would just be supporting another form of evil; strikes me as a valid argument. But I don’t find that argument in the first thread. (Though I’ll admit that **elucidator** was pretty close.) And I still don’t think the issue has been “taken to task.” And the Hannah Arendt quote was just supposed to be a sort of “tag line.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/60 "2003-03-08T10:12:27Z")
Well **Zigaretten** , that is a clarification, I would say though that closer to the end it looks like there is no good reply to my point, but still the fact remains that THIS thread is a **Guin** pit thread against **december** regarding his Pope “opinion”, do you agree on that with him? Or you think it is better to continue with a highjack to a position that needs to be discussed on that other thread, not here? This is, BTW, why I mention that you are mudding the waters, you are ignoring the forum where we are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=4)