# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/61 "2003-03-08T10:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > Well **Zigaretten** , that is a clarification, I would say though that closer to the end it looks like there is no good reply to my point… No reply to what point? As for my attitude toward this thread, I summed that up in my first post. **Apos** made a snarky comment. **december** made a snarky reply. This thread is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/62 "2003-03-08T10:31:22Z")
I see, but I did not ask for your attitude, if you cannot deal with the current point, why bring your non defense of **december** ’s volley then? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/63 "2003-03-08T10:41:57Z")
It’s OK to hate the Pope for his anti-abortion views, and on the whole sex abuse scandal, but the checkered history of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis the Jews is right out? **decemeber** makes his case and he’s not rude. I just wish people would attack him in the thread in question. Why pit the guy? It makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/64 "2003-03-08T10:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*Let me go over this again, since it appears that both **Mtgman** and yourself have completely missed my point (which may, admittedly, be due to bad communication on my part). **december’s** OP begins:” I know that almost all sincere Iraq war opponents believe that they oppose Saddam Hussein as well as opposing war. However, I maintain that they actually are supporting Saddam.” > > […] > > This is the issue that nobody dealt with in the first thread. \*\* Maybe that’s because there’s a [whole other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167331) on the subject already, starting by **december** himself. But then, why refer someone to a pre-existing thread when you can just keep repeating the same assertions over and over again? ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/65 "2003-03-08T10:48:55Z")
My **opinion** is that my **opinion** isn’t important. I can’t help it, I’m a facts and figures kinda guy. **Opinions** don’t impress me. Reread my second post in this thread. My **argument** is that **december** has introduced **facts** in support of his statement. That is an open invitation to actually refute the statement. Do so! Bringing this to the Pit so that everyone can evade argumentation and simply spout abuse is, well, less than impressive. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/66 "2003-03-08T10:52:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > Maybe that’s because there’s a [whole other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167331) on the subject already, starting by **december** himself. But then, why refer someone to a pre-existing thread when you can just keep repeating the same assertions over and over again? Ummm…my quote that you use is actually referring to that thread, which was already linked to in the OP. I don’t think you’re following along. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/67 "2003-03-08T10:58:04Z")
It all sounds like ordinary Republican Party logic to me. War is for peace. Peace is attempted genocide. We are justified in attacking anyone we want to attack, because we are the good guys. And we will pay for it all by cutting taxes. Was it just recently you guys noticed that this jingoistic bullshit is illogical? Remember when every air strike carried out during the Clinton Administration was “Bill Waggin’ the Dog”? Everyone knows that a war during a Democratic Administration is evil incarnate, for the preservation of the Dreaded Liberal Cowardice. War by Republicans, of course is Noble Defense of Liberty. Get your [The Official Bullshit Awareness Ribbon.](http://triskadecamus.teemingmillions.com/BSA_ribbon.jpg) out, and wear it tomorrow. Tris ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/68 "2003-03-08T11:01:21Z")
And my impression of **Zigaretten** just took a dive. I did show that his “facts” were not right in my next post, BTW I checked the “facts” of his first reply and they are not reliable at all. Still, If your opinion is not important, why a defence of a pointless opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/69 "2003-03-08T11:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*Ummm…my quote that you use is actually referring to that thread, which was already linked to in the OP. > > I don’t think you’re following along. \*\* I’m following along just fine. And I see an entire thread of refutations to **december** ’s assertions. So why say that no-one’s addressed them? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/70 "2003-03-08T11:18:50Z")
On second thought, taking into account the context of **Zigaretten** post regarding opinions and facts, I can say that **december** ’s first reply was a disaster according to your standards: First, a book that dealt with PiusXII not Jean Paul II. And the other “facts”? Three opinion pieces! So you say opinions don’t impress you? Do you pay attention to what you say? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/71 "2003-03-08T11:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*It’s OK to hate the Pope for his anti-abortion views, and on the whole sex abuse scandal, but the checkered history of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis the Jews is right out? > > **decemeber** makes his case and he’s not rude. I just wish people would attack him in the thread in question. Why pit the guy? It makes no sense. \*\* Nobody’s going to listen, since it’s december, all they can see is their jingoistic flame fest. I agree that nobody had adressed the points brought up by december, (here, I haven’t read the other thread). ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/72 "2003-03-08T11:46:49Z")
Excuse me, **Weirddave** , but what exactly is a “jingoistic flame fest”? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/73 "2003-03-08T11:50:33Z")
I’m don’t even care about the point december’s making. He might have named a pope who never existed for all I know. I just don’t get the number of pit threads devoted to **december**. If he was rude I would understand it. Perhaps we could sticky a pit thread in his honor. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/74 "2003-03-08T11:51:56Z")
That’s what happens when you change your mind in mid-sentence kiddies. Don’t let it happen to you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/75 "2003-03-08T11:56:11Z")
_Originally posted by December:_ > [@](#): > > The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews. What else is new? Not rude and he has a point? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/76 "2003-03-08T12:00:56Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* And the other “facts”? Three opinion pieces! So you say opinions don’t impress you? Do you pay attention to what you say? /QUOTE] Indeed I do. Enough to have noticed that those “opinion pieces” contain the following “factual” assertions: …….that Pope John Paul II has denounced “the march to war.” …….that Pope JP II (is that considered rude?) has met personally with world leaders to “beseech the belligerents to stand down.” …….that top Catholic Church officials have described the war as immoral. ……the Vatican has rejected arguments based on Catholic just-war doctrine that defend the war. ……that one of the Pope’s top lieutenants has called the war “a crime against peace.” ……that the Pope requested that Catholics worldwide offer their Ash Wednesday fasts for peace. So far seems to pretty well establish that the Pope opposes the war on Iraq. (Unless refuted, of course.) ……the Vatican did not establish full diplomatic relations with Israel until 1997, nearly fifty years after Israel’s birth. ……the Pope condemned Israel for desecrating Christian Holy sites but never mentioned desecration by the IDF. And so on. Obviously I’m just rewriting **december’s** first post. But these are all allegations of **fact.** As such, they can be refuted, unlike opinions. For instance, all you have to do is show where the Pope did condemn the IDF for desecrating the church in question. Or you can argue that these “facts” are true but don’t lead to the conclusions that they are designed to elicit, namely that the office of the Pope has a history of being, anti-Israeli (or anti-Jewish) and that the present Pope opposes the war against Iraq. Or you can argue that those conclusions are accurate but that that still doesn’t translate into support for **december’s** statement that the Pope is “supporting” (keeping in mind **all** of the definitions of “support”) a regime that kills Jews. So, while I wouldn’t necessarily argue that this is the best argument that I’ve ever seen, it’s definitely an argument that I, with all my disdain for “opinion" intact, can deal with. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/77 "2003-03-08T12:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > Nobody’s going to listen, since it’s december, all they can see is their jingoistic flame fest. I’m learning exactly that lesson very quickly. (But not quickly enough to avoid looking pretty foolish, I’m afraid.) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/78 "2003-03-08T12:09:07Z")
**Weirddave** didn’t respond, so I’ll ask you **zigratten** , as you seem to agree with the use of the term. What exactly is a “jingoistic flame fest”? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/79 "2003-03-08T12:12:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Not rude and he has a point? :rolleyes: Are you the Pope?:dubious: And since when is not having a point reason to pit someone? It’s a hell of a reason to post counter-arguments and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/80 "2003-03-08T12:14:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***Weirddave** didn’t respond, so I’ll ask you **zigratten** , as you seem to agree with the use of the term. What exactly is a “jingoistic flame fest”? \*\* Everyone gets together and says "Hey, aren’t we the greatest and isn’t that nasty old **december** an (_insert insult here_)! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=5)