# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/81 "2003-03-08T12:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Excuse me, **Weirddave** , but what exactly is a “jingoistic flame fest”? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***Weirddave** didn’t respond, so I’ll ask you **zigratten** , as you seem to agree with the use of the term. What exactly is a “jingoistic flame fest”? \*\* Wanna ask again? Third time is the charm, so they say! 😉 A Jingoistic flame fest is exactly what you see here, People who know from past interaction that they disagree with the politics of the poster in question and respond to said poster’s polite, well stated OP, not with counter arguements, facts and possible different inerpitations of the issues, but with personal attacks, strawmen, empty rhetoric and by bringing up unrelated issues( example:“The Pope supports regimes that kill Jews” “How can you say that, you support a regime that wants to carpet bomb Iraq!”) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/82 "2003-03-08T12:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*Everyone gets together and says "Hey, aren’t we the greatest and isn’t that nasty old **december** an (_insert insult here_)! \*\* That’s what still has me confused. I understood jingoism to mean something like: > [@](#): > > **jingoism** _noun_ The extreme belief that your own country is always best, which is often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country. > _“Patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly”_ How can opposition to the war or to Bush be jingoism? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/83 "2003-03-08T12:24:04Z")
It’s okay, guys, I see that you’re actually using the word “jingoism” in some colloquial sense that’s the opposite of its usual meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/84 "2003-03-08T12:24:21Z")
“Jingoism” used in the sense that one’s particular brand of politics is right without question. Sorry, should have been more clear. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/85 "2003-03-08T12:25:32Z")
The desecration at the church was only directed specifically to the smoking and drinking of some peace activists in the church, the rest, it looks like the priests took it as a necessary burden to protect human life, even I have some problems with that, but still the original desecration complaint was for tanks treads and bullet holes in the plaza. And yes **Zigaretten** , I go for your last assessment of december’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/86 "2003-03-08T12:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **december** : The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews. What else is new? I see this as a swipe at the Catholic Church which has historically been very hostile to the Jews. “Hostile” is a nice way to put it. From the early Christians, through the Inquisition, the pogroms, the whole European experience, WWII, etc., the Christians (for quite a while the Catholic Church only) have done every single bad thing you can name to the Jews and **december** gets pitted for ripping a pope for anti-Semitism? Seems like some misplaced outrage. \*\*I want to make up a word for misplaced outrage. \*\* Mousrage ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/87 "2003-03-08T12:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*It’s okay, guys, I see that you’re actually using the word “jingoism” in some colloquial sense that’s the opposite of its usual meaning. \*\* Oh, bite me. Saying "The jingoistic rhetoric of the Republicans( or Dems, or the left, or the right, etc…)"is perfectly legitimate useage of the term. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/88 "2003-03-08T12:28:15Z")
Can I buy an “a”? I seem to have forgotten one in my last post. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/89 "2003-03-08T12:31:49Z")
I’m not trying to argue with you, **Weirddave**. I was genuinely confused. Then we simulposted a few posts up a got wires crossed. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/90 "2003-03-08T12:33:01Z")
“and got wires crossed” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/91 "2003-03-08T12:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Are you the Pope?:dubious: And since when is not having a point reason to pit someone? It’s a hell of a reason to post counter-arguments and evidence. \*\* Why no, I am not the Pope, just a lapsed catholic that is impressed by a Pope that helped America bring the fall of comunism now being ignored in this case, I notice that it is better for your position to ignore the quote of **december** that got us here. And I still have my doubts about an Instapundit source and my quote did show that one key point of december was pure ignorance, so I still don’t think he is right. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/92 "2003-03-08T12:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*I’m not trying to argue with you, **Weirddave**. I was genuinely confused. Then we simulposted a few posts up a got wires crossed. \*\* Works for me. Sorry about the ‘bite me’, I only got 3 hours sleep last night. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/93 "2003-03-08T12:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I see this as a swipe at the Catholic Church which has historically been very hostile to the Jews. “Hostile” is a nice way to put it. > > From the early Christians, through the Inquisition, the pogroms, the whole European experience, WWII, etc., the Christians (for quite a while the Catholic Church only) have done every single bad thing you can name to the Jews and **december** gets pitted for ripping a pope for anti-Semitism? Seems like some misplaced outrage. > > \*\*I want to make up a word for misplaced outrage. \*\* > > Mousrage \*\* The problem in reality is that the quote assumes that nothing has changed and the church is the same right now, the context was to discredit a PEACE message from the church that has the power to change many minds regarding the support of the War. It was **december** who brought an anti-Jewish accusation as the reply for the message, regardless of the doubtful support on facts for that volley, it was an ultimate “kill the messenger” action. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/94 "2003-03-08T13:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*The problem in reality is that the quote assumes that nothing has changed and the church is the same right now, the context was to discredit a PEACE message from the church that has the power to change many minds regarding the support of the War. It was **december** who brought an anti-Jewish accusation as the reply for the message, regardless of the doubtful support on facts for that volley, it was an ultimate “kill the messenger” action. \*\* Why is it acceptable to point out that the Catholic Church has changed over time and thus their past actions are a moot point, while at the same time many anti-war advocates are very quick to point to what the U.S. did 4 administrations ago as somehow relevant to the current situation with reguards to Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/95 "2003-03-08T14:13:22Z")
I can’t imagine why **december** would connect a Catholic prayer for peace with the survival of Saddam’s regime with the destruction of the Jews in his mind? Oh, wait, yes I can. I must admit that when I think of the history of the Catholic Church I think in large part of intolerance, torture, and death. I did study medieval history in college, it’s hard not to. So, when a pope makes a move which goes directly against the possible survival of the state of Israel I can understand why some people might jump. But, I personally think that the Catholic Church is [seriously trying to grapple with its own history.](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0031.html) It’s a new improved church. OTOH, :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/96 "2003-03-08T14:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*…But, I personally think that the Catholic Church is [seriously trying to grapple with its own history.](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0031.html) It’s a new improved church. OTOH, :dubious: \*\* Unfortunately, the RCC has had a underwhelming response to the too many preists that are trying to grapple with altar boys. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/97 "2003-03-08T18:50:42Z")
I see that the effort so far has been to paint this and other **december** pits as undeserved ones because: 1 They considered it old news. (Quick to judge and silly reason to dismiss while acusing the OP of the same) 2) They explain the reason why **december** arrived to the stinking pile of shit quote that generated the pit, and then assume that that will automatically make it a diamond! (As I see, what it does, is getting you dirty also) 3) Only consider the OP of a different thread as the reason why to ignore the rude quote now in the pit. (This one is a beauty of ignoring why we got here) 4) Continue the killing of the messenger and expecting everybody (or Catholics in this case) to forget the insult. 5) Continue to ignore this is the pit! (You lousy second hand Google cite molester!) I cannot get so upset since I do agree with some of the criticism to the church, but even though I see that, and I do considered it a valid criticism of THE CHURCH, it is not a valid one for this particular message of peace, it is still a very dishonest way to dump the message that the Pope is bringing in this case. Hence, this pit and the amusing spectacle of wannabe alchemists sprouting left and right (mostly from the right) to change a lump of coal into gold. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/98 "2003-03-08T19:40:25Z")
Such as repeating the old chestnut that the Pope is the head of a Jew-killing regime is “polite” and “well-stated”? In what universe? It is very difficult to believe that the Chicago Reader would countenance use of their resources to promulgate simple hate speech such as **december** has used - and without apology, despite his alleged “politeness”. He’s gone too far a number of times before, but never as far as this. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/99 "2003-03-08T21:40:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Such as repeating the old chestnut that the Pope is the head of a Jew-killing regime is “polite” and “well-stated”? In what universe? > > It is very difficult to believe that the Chicago Reader would countenance use of their resources to promulgate simple hate speech such as **december** has used - and without apology, despite his alleged “politeness”. He’s gone too far a number of times before, but never as far as this. \*\* Really? AFAICT, december said: > [@](#): > > The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews. What else is new? He then proceded to give a list of reasons why he said this and cites backing them up, cites that pretty clearly show how he arived at that conclusion. Weather you agree with him that what’s going on now constitutes “support” or not, calling it “hate speach” is so far out in left field that it’s in the parking lot. Once again I suspect that dislike for the poster has interfered with your ability to be objective. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/100 "2003-03-08T22:06:30Z")
Taking the context that that **december** quote was to counteract a point about a peace initiative, such a rude answer is not defensible as relevant to the discussion; it sounded more like a highjack, and indeed, coming out of left field. And I do understand why many would see it as hate speech, again, taking the context into account. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=6)