# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/121 "2003-03-09T05:22:18Z")
Well, to me context is everything, I could say by your reply that you know plenty about the experience of the smells in the basements. And the context was a peace request by the Pope, followed by a jerk’s reaction. And he refused to see anything was wrong in GD, you may say the pit is not duress **Weirddave** but I think it is, after all your posts drip with it, and so ours to **december**. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/122 "2003-03-09T07:02:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > However, one thing I do know is that _Hitler’s Pope_ is not exactly a credible source. Can you share some details on how you know this? The book was quite well received. E.g., [the New York Times Book Review wrote](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140296271/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_6/102-4263974-1326568?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews) > [@](#): > > By combining the painstaking research of other scholars with his own new documentation … Cambridge makes a case in _Hitler’s Pope_ that is very difficult to refute. The _Atlantic Monthly_ called it “devastating.” The _San Francisco Chronicle_ called it,“A superb lesson in Catholic Church politics.” More positive reviews are shown at the cite. **Avalonian** , please re-read that analogy you refer to. In no way did it compare Martin Luther King Jr. to George W. Bush. It compared the difficulty of getting Iraqi Sunnis and Shi’ites to live together with the difficulty of getting American blacks and whites to live together. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/123 "2003-03-09T07:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*Well, to me context is everything, I could say by your reply that you know plenty about the experience of the smells in the basements. > > \*\*. \*\* You can say anything you want, that’s the beauty of America, it dosen’t bother me none. I stand by what I post, and if I ever start posting bald faced lies, I expect to be called on it. As to insults, well, Squink paid the piper, I just decided to dance a reel or two to the tune. It’s a pity that the watered down pit we have today is but a plae immitation of what it used to be, when giants like NeuroTrashGrrrl sucked the marrow from the bones of posters who said “your mother sucks!” and then tittered because they had said a bad word. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/124 "2003-03-09T07:21:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Avalonian** , please re-read that analogy you refer to. In no way did it compare Martin Luther King Jr. to George W. Bush. It compared the difficulty of getting Iraqi Sunnis and Shi’ites to live together with the difficulty of getting American blacks and whites to live together. On further reflection, one could view the analogy as comparing King’s optimism that the races could live together in harmony with Bush’s optimism that the religious sects could live together in harmony. I don’t see anything “snide” about this comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/125 "2003-03-09T07:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Weirddave claims_ > YOU are the one who said “december said the Pope is a murderer”, all he said was that the Pope supported regimes that had killed Jews, a charge he has backed up. Nope, I said “dismissed as a murderer” not “december said the Pope is a murderer.” Please recall that the meaning of as: “To the same extent or degree; equally” is not identical to the definition of is. I’m sure that you know what the definition of is is by now. Your willingness to apply a generous helping of syntactic goodwill to december’s anti-pope remarks, and not those who call him on them, reflects a serious lapse of objectivity on your part. And don’t even try to claim that self-serving word games weren’t a part of december’s strategy to avoid explaining himself: > [@](#): > > _december posted_ > Note that the word “support” could have two meanings: what you think or what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/126 "2003-03-09T07:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > As to insults, well, Squink paid the piper, I just decided to dance a reel or two to the tune. Been drinking tonight ? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/127 "2003-03-09T08:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Nope, I said “dismissed as a murderer” not “december said the Pope is a murderer.” Please recall that the meaning of as: “To the same extent or degree; equally” is not identical to the definition of is. \*\* Not quite. Your **exact** words: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > I’m not catholic, and I don’t even like the pope much, but to dismiss him as a murderer is about the most dishonest, self-serving garbage I’ve ever seen on this board. > (underline mine) Selectively editing your words only underscores what I have been saying: YOU ARE A LIAR. Stop previcating and just admit you’ve been caught. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > > > [@](#): > > > > As to insults, well, Squink paid the piper, I just decided to dance a reel or two to the tune. > > \*\*Been drinking tonight ? :dubious: \*\* Not especially, you said to me: > [@](#): > > Yeah, well your Momma’s a whore, and your daddy’s a rottweiler. There’s a comment for you. Not an especially good insult, it’s right up there with “says you!” and “you suck”, but I expect it’s the best you can do. Just don’t try to weasel out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/128 "2003-03-09T09:06:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Selectively editing your words only underscores what I have been saying: YOU ARE A LIAR. Stop previcating (sic) and just admit you’ve been caught. I’m a LIAR for leaving out a “him” in the interest of clarity when you’ve changed an “as” to an “is” and utterly misrepresented my remarks ? It’s obvious from context that I was referring to the Pope. Ever heard of conspiracy to commit murder Weirddave ? Those that are convicted, are often likened to murdurers themselves. > [@](#): > > The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews. What else is new? It seemed that december was quite willing to convict the pope of that crime. It’s hardly a lie to point that out, nor is it a lie to claim truthfully that december coudn’t be bothered to defend his remarks until it was demanded of him, _two days later_ in the pit. > [@](#): > > Not an especially good insult, it’s right up there with “says you!” and “you suck” I don’t particularly enjoy insulting others and calling them liars, but it’s obvious from your posts here that you do. I hope that you derive some pleasure from it. You certainly won’t gain any respectability or credibility from such wild and unfounded accusations. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/129 "2003-03-09T13:31:29Z")
Dave, what the hell’s going on? Can you not see the intentions in december’s words? How can you defend his statements? To december, the worst thing in the world you can be is Anti-Semetic. Lately he has been trying to label anyone who holds a position he disagrees with as Anti-Semetic. people protest war in Iraq? they must be Anti-Semetic. People question the actions of the Israeli government? They must be Anti-Semetic. The pope calls for a peaceful solution that respects all traditions in the Middle East? Feh, He’s Anti-Semetic because he’s still to blame for the actions of his predecessors, even though he has apologised to the Jewish people. December want to see war in Iraq. And anyone who disagrees with War in Iraq he sees as fair game to discredit and denounce in any way he can, either outright or by sly association. If he want to be taken seriously, he has to stop acting like he’s deluded. December is not a troll, but he ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/130 "2003-03-09T13:34:07Z")
Ignore that last sentencfe fragment, and remind me to preview in future. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/131 "2003-03-09T13:35:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*December is not a troll, but he \*\* …has connections and **TwistofFate** is with us no more. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/132 "2003-03-09T14:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > **I’m a LIAR for leaving out a “him” in the interest of clarity when you’ve changed an “as” to an “is” and utterly misrepresented my remarks ?** I changed _ **NOTHING** _. I quoted you directly from the linked thread. Shockingly bad manners won’t save you here. You said “him”, a direct reference to the Pope. YOU also said “is”. Weasel, weasel, weasel. > [@](#): > > It’s obvious from context that I was referring to the Pope. My point exactly. > [@](#): > > Ever heard of conspiracy to commit murder Weirddave ? Those that are convicted, are often likened to murdurers themselves. I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. > [@](#): > > The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews. What else is new? > > > [@](#): > > > > It seemed that december was quite willing to convict the pope of that crime. It’s hardly a lie to point that out, nor is it a lie to claim truthfully that december coudn’t be bothered to defend his remarks until it was demanded of him, _two days later_ in the pit. Which was the first time proof was demanded of him. He provided it. What is your point, that december should anticipate every little thing someone might say? He made a statement, he was called on it, he explained. QED. > [@](#): > > Not an especially good insult, it’s right up there with “says you!” and “you suck” > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t particularly enjoy insulting others and calling them liars, but it’s obvious from your posts here that you do. I hope that you derive some pleasure from it. You certainly won’t gain any respectability or credibility from such wild and unfounded accusations. Every one of my accusations has been grounded in fact. I don’t enjoy insulting people, it’s not my way. What I do love is catching liars in their own web of deceit, and guess what, Petunia? You’re stuck fast. you have not even attempted to adress the facts of your own posts that I have thrown before you. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/133 "2003-03-09T14:46:17Z")
Jewish are killed Jesus, therefore all jewish are anti-christian. It doesn’t matter that it’s a very controversial issue that happened 2000 years ago because december and his supporters say it’s okay to make stupid arguments like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/134 "2003-03-09T14:46:21Z")
Twisty, Personally, I could care less about december or his politics. For myself, I’m a moderate who skews towards the conservative with reguards to foreign policy and towards the liberal domesticlly. I support the war with Iraq as an unfortunate necessity, and have never had any anti-war people give me any realistic alternatives even when directly asked, and I’m including such prominent posters as tomndeb in that group. I hate and detest Dubbya and think he’s the biggest threat to American freedom in years. (to forestall the obvious, there are checks on Dubya, Saddam has none on him). All that being said, I find it reprehensible the way everyone dogpiles december just because they don’t like his politics. Most of their arguement boils down to “ignore it, it’s december”. Here, he has made legitimate accusations and provided cites to back them up. The Catholic Church DOES have a history that can be labled anti-semetic, and depending on your definition of “support”, clearly “supports” ( or not, make the arguement, nobody’s done that yet) regimes that have and continue to kill Jews. The refuseal to respond to specific arguements with counter points, relying instead on ad homin attacks simply because one dosen’t like the poster in question is not fighting ignorance, it’s embracing it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/135 "2003-03-09T14:57:22Z")
Dave, your assertion that december responded to objections to his claims _in re_ the pope: > [@](#): > > He then proceded to give a list of reasons why he said this and cites backing them up, cites that pretty clearly show how he arived at that conclusion. Was bogus. The response only came after the the pitting. You gave it your best shot. You got called on it. You lost. Foaming at the mouth and calling your betters liars won’t change that, even if you put it in 48 point type and spend weeks repeating yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/136 "2003-03-09T15:16:21Z")
Ohh, [LOOK](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/opinion/09CART.html) now Jimmy Carter’s a Saddamite too ! Is there no end to this groundswell of support for murdering jews ? Perhaps there can be, if people stop equating legitimate moral qualms about invading Iraq with antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/137 "2003-03-09T16:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*The response only came after the the pitting. \*\* Which was the first time **december** was closely questioned about his remark. Peruse the other thread – other than a couple of remarks along the lines of “you’ve gotta be kidding me” and one remark from you basically saying “wow, you’re an asshole” – no one seemed terribly put out by the remark. The discussion marched on unabated. I’m left to wonder why **Guinastasia** , rather than running off to the Pit, didn’t just post in that thread something along the lines of “What on earth is your rationale for saying that? Because it sure sounds hateful.” And if **december** then refused to provide a plausible rationale, THEN go to the Pit. Everyone, even **december** , ought to be afforded the chance to clarify their remarks before they are summarily Pitted. **December** ’s position here is arguable, but defensible. God knows I’ve had my share of frustrating discussions with **december**. He can, at times, be willfully obtuse and he does approach things with the most partisan mindset I’ve ever seen. Sometimes his pittings are justified. This one was not. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/138 "2003-03-09T18:08:39Z")
Dewey, you make several good points. However it’s quite possible to disagree with them without being branded a liar. December is quite a gifted propagandist, but I feel that with that gift there comes responsibility to defend one’s more outrageous claims, without having to be badgered into it via a pitting. It’s not as if he spent two days blissfully ignorant of the response he’d drawn with his remark. Of course YMMV, and that’s OK by me. The mods do seem to agree with you on this. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/139 "2003-03-09T18:11:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > Peruse the other thread – other than a couple of remarks along the lines of “you’ve gotta be kidding me” and one remark from you basically saying “wow, you’re an asshole” – no one seemed terribly put out by the remark. Don’t assume reaction based only on what you read. As most of us, and certainly you, all know by now from dealing with this deliberately-ignorant bigot, it wasn’t going to be useful in any way to post a reply (although some have disagreed). It would have simply hijacked a good thread, and given him the attention he craves. It wasn’t the time or the place - but this is. **weirddave** , being able to fit a plausible-looking rationale underneath a statement of pure, ignorant hate does not excuse it, and I’m disappointed in you for making excuses along those lines. We had a GQ thread recently, for instance, about how slave-owners justified their practice with Biblical citations. Their “politeness” even created the image of the “courtly Southern gentleman”, as an example - and somehow this person is getting _credit_ from some of you for being no more than that (less the Southernness, for instance). His political stances on other issues is also irrelevant, and I’m disappointed in you for suggesting that it is, as well. It’s tough enough Fighting Ignorance when it fights back, but when it has allies like you as well, it’s even tougher. Now why shouldn’t we all use quotes from “Protocols of the Elders of Zion in” our sig lines? What would be the difference between that and what the person in question has done here? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/140 "2003-03-09T18:17:00Z")
Further to this “politeness” stuff that keeps getting dragged up to defend the indefensible: It is surely obvious to the person in question by now that he has caused a great deal of offense, _even if it was unintentional_. A polite person would recognize that, and, out of respect for his fellow humans, admit that the offense had been caused and that he had caused it, and would ask to be forgiven for it. But we’re not going to get a “polite” statement from him to anything near that effect, are we? So can we lay to rest the myth of his “politeness” for good? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=8)