# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/141 "2003-03-09T19:52:21Z")
> [@](#): > > The Catholic Church DOES have a history that can be labled anti-semetic, and depending on your definition of “support”, clearly “supports” ( or not, make the arguement, nobody’s done that yet) regimes that have and continue to kill Jews. thats the thing. The Church has been remorseful over its past in the last few years, and is doing everything in its power to attone for its previous crimes (at least towards other religions, as for its reaction to its own members is a matter for another debate.) The Vatican has been proactive in supporting calls to reach a peaceful resolution in disputes all over the world. It arranges audiences with people of many different perspectives. World leaders who so wish an audience with the Big Hat will be granted it. But to say that the Vatican unilaterally condones and even supports the politics and policies of everyone who meets with the Pope is ridiculous. December tossed off a one liner in a thread. “The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews, what else is new?” Now lets look at his words. He is implying that the Pope is happy with the fact that Saddam Hussein’s regieme has killed Jews. Where is the debate here? what is not justified with this pitting? I agree that people are sometimes too quick to dismiss anything he says, but ferchrissakes, look at what he is saying here! He’s gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/142 "2003-03-09T20:11:51Z")
See Twisty, that’s making arguements against the statement he made. I am a firm believer that any statement, no matter how outrageous, that a poster has backed up with references and cites, needs to be refuted, not by insulting the poster, but by providing counter cites and arguements. Elvis proves my point, look at his last two posts: > [@](#): > > " As most of us, and certainly you, all know by now from dealing with this deliberately-ignorant bigot," > > “It would have simply hijacked a good thread, and given him the attention he craves.” > > “It is surely obvious to the person in question by now that he has caused a great deal of offense” > > “But we’re not going to get a “polite” statement from him to anything near that effect, are we?” These are all concerned with the individual, not with the claims he has made, thus proving my point. Elvis also said: > [@](#): > > It’s tough enough Fighting Ignorance when it fights back, but when it has allies like you as well, it’s even tougher. I say, by all means, fight it, but ad homin attacks are not the way to do that. December has made statements and backed them up with cites. Refute those _statements and cites_, not the _poster himself_, That would be fighting ignorance. “I don’t like so and so, so FUCK YOU!” acomplishes nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/143 "2003-03-09T20:13:30Z")
I’m going to say this now, and for the final time: I made this thread a. as so not to hijack the thread in GD b. because a thread about this in GD would not have been appropriate, as it would have been a pile on and a rant and calling out disguised as a GD thread. **december** is more than welcome to start a GD thread on anti-semitism in the Catholic church. However, I would hope they do not consist of simple drive by bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/144 "2003-03-09T21:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*And remember **I am sparticus**? He was banned. He took offence to the use of the word “nigger” in a thread even though virtually everybody knew that the use of the word was appropriate for the context. **I am sparticus** decided then to be a jerk and take offence and insult everybody (and a moderator) because all other members were giving a “pass” to the OP for using an offensive word. > By not even apologizing for writing an insult, against a peace position that should have been opposed in a different way in GD, **december** has entered that terrain. Incidentally even **sparticus** like **december** did defend his outrageous volleys, but that did not exonerate him at all for being declared a jerk. \*\* Sorry for the brief diversion, but as one of the ‘virtually nobody’ who said that the term was inappropriate because the gist, or context, of the post was unrepentently racist, I must say something. For some reason, people who disagreed with the sentiment that the story was not racist did not feel comfortable posting their opposition in that thread. I doubt that it was the banning of **I am Spartacus** , but for some reason, I got emails from people agreeing that the little story was actually offensive and racist who did not feel that they could post such there. Some of the other posts in the thread also suggested to me that I, in detailing the racism in the post, was suggesting that the emperor had no clothes on (in that the poster of the racism was established here as a fine teller of touching stories). I don’t disagree that the manner in which **I am Spartacus** went about voicing his opposition was inappropriate, however. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/145 "2003-03-09T21:41:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*December tossed off a one liner in a thread. “The Pope supports a regime that murders the Jews, what else is new?” > > Now lets look at his words. He is implying that the Pope is happy with the fact that Saddam Hussein’s regieme has killed Jews. > > Where is the debate here? what is not justified with this pitting?\*\* I was implying that whatever unhappiness th Pope has with the regime of Saddam Hussein (and Yasser Arafat as well) was not sufficient to stop him from providing moral support to them. These regimes have murdered Jews. When challenged, I provided cites supporting my POV. What more do you want? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/146 "2003-03-09T21:48:24Z")
how is he providing moral support? is he sending them a christmas card saying “Have a great Holidays, and keep up the good work!”? I want you to stop pandering to the lowest assumption you can make about your opponents and post as if its the truth. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/147 "2003-03-09T22:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*how is he providing moral support? is he sending them a christmas card saying “Have a great Holidays, and keep up the good work!”? \*\* Posts earlier in this thread explained ways that the Pope is providing moral support. But, I want to make one point clear. Even if you disagree with my premise, it has enough factual support to not deserve pitting. OTOH you have done little to counter my arguments, except for irrelevant sarcasm, like the quote above. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/148 "2003-03-09T22:24:12Z")
when are a couple of opinion pieces factual proof that The Vatican is providing moral support to Saddam to kill Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/149 "2003-03-09T23:03:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Don’t assume reaction based only on what you read. \*\* It’s a message board, Sparky. “What you read” is really the only way to gauge reaction, period. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/150 "2003-03-10T03:56:50Z")
The bottom line in all this is that what **december** did was cram a volley with: 1: a highjack 2: a rude statement 3: an accusation And incredible feat I grant you! And I think this charade of justification after the fact is pathetic, I saw better excuses for the president when he called a reporter a mayor league asshole, but after all the smoke and mirrors put forward on this thread, it remains that NO one that supports december thinks he should say that again in a similar circumstance. Just like in the president’s case, only an obtuse would think it would be ok to do that again, regardless of his pile of justifications. I think his justifications, while possibly relevant to point 3, are irrelevant to points 1 and 2. **I am sparticus** justifications were more valid, but by missing the context, being insulting and high jacking the thread, he was banned. [aside] When one checks those december’s justifications one finds them to be of: 1. “facts” done by a different pope before Vatican II 2. Facts put in a misleading fashion by a blogster. 3. Instapundit (I still can not see anybody saying this is a reliable source) And a cite I found from Rome showed that one of his points was full of ignorance. So the justifications in the end are soso and this is the best he could do to say his out of place remark was justified? [/aside] Even though all the alchemists here are thinking everything is peachy with **december** the reality is that they are making sure he will pull these derailments again and again. At least the president does not think he has the right to continue insulting reporters near a mike, just because he and his minions found a way to justify what he did. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/151 "2003-03-10T15:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*It’s a message board, Sparky. “What you read” is really the only way to gauge reaction, period. \*\* Well, you do still have your brain, don’tcha, Snarky? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/152 "2003-03-10T16:20:13Z")
**december** actually gave me reasonable answers to some questions I posed in one of his recent GD threads. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/153 "2003-03-10T17:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I honestly believe that if December’s beleifs were the opposite of what they are he’d be considered a middle of the road poster. \*\* I’m picking on **Scylla** here because this post is a particularly good example of the disconnect between the sides of this arguement. Plus I know his ego can take it. First off, believe it or not, he is a moderate conservative. Conservatism, taken to extremes, is totalatarianism. I don’t think anyone here believes **december** is advocating such a position. Add in abortion rights(which he supports) and several of his positions on other issues and you’ve got a fairly solid, and vocal, moderate conservative. Where is the issue with this statement then? Simply this. I, and others I’m sure, don’t object to what **december** believes. Speaking for myself, I don’t give a shit if he thinks the Pope is a mass murderer. So where’s the problem? Two problems really, and they’re completely independent of his ideology. First, the minor problem. He states his opinion as objective fact. “The Pope supports a regime that murders Jews.” instead of “I believe the Pope is, regardless of his intentions, supporting a regime which murders Jews.” One is clearly opinion, the other is highly spun, emotionally charged, and presented as fact. The fact that the position is arguable, using some little-known definition of “support” and lots of new-think, is beside the point. It is presented as if it was as certain as the statement “the sun rises in the East”. This is dishonest, but it pales in comparison to the major problem people have with him. The major problem is that his characterizations of people who disagree with him are generally highly inaccurate and seemingly tailored to demonize. It is the imposition of his black-and-white worldview on everyone he comes into contact with which draws him the ire he receives. Either you support an iminent American-led war against Iraq, or you support Saddam Hussien as he builds nuclear weapons to destroy Israel. This type of black-and-white thinking simply doesn’t fly in a world with shades of grey. If you happened to occupy one of those shades of grey, and suddenly someone is calling you an Anti-Semitic bigot because you support sanctions/inspections/whatever over outright war, surely you can see that being demonized in this manner is offensive. No other positions are available in a “debate” with **december** , and he’s ruthless at twisting the posts of others to try to force them into one of his defined positions. The comment which earned him this thread was him ruthlessly twisting the actual position of the Pope, wanting a bloodless resolution to the problem in the middle east, into some sort of “Hey Saddam! You go ahead and wipe out those Jews, I got your back!” kind of nonsense. In a nutshell: It is not the positions **december** holds which are offensive. It is the positions he represents others as holding. Case in point: This exchange between himself and myself in Great Debates. In [a thread discussing Miguel Estrada’s nomination to the D.C. Court of Appeals.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=167175) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Mtgman_ > > \*\*Regardless, they clearly believe they won’t get the answers from Estrada because they feel he weasels instead of answering their questions. \*\* > > I agree that the Democrats don’t think they’ll get the answers they want from Estrada. Note the words “they want” didn’t appear in my statement. In this context, adding them to my statement changes the meaning and misrepresents my position. I resent that, and oddly enough, when it happens to him, so does **december**. Witness [this exchange on page 1 of this very thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3100367#post3100367) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Coldfire_ > > **So, december, because the Pope invited Aziz over for a chat means he fully supports the Iraqi regime.** > > Coldfire, why did you change my statement by adding the word “fully”? Is it because you cannot refute the statement I actually made? Loves to dish it out, cries foul when he’s on the receiving end. The problem with **december** isn’t his position. It’s his dishonesty in debating. It’s the sure knowledge that you can’t expect a fair debate with him on the other side because he’s more interested in “winning” than learning or teaching. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/154 "2003-03-10T17:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > **Loves to dish it out, cries foul when he’s on the receiving end. The problem with december isn’t his position. It’s his dishonesty in debating. It’s the sure knowledge that you can’t expect a fair debate with him on the other side because he’s more interested in “winning” than learning or teaching.** Some people were saying the same about **Reverend Mykeru** ; he’s gone but **december** is still here. Something’s not quite right about that. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/155 "2003-03-10T17:34:31Z")
FTR: I’m neither advocating **Rev.** be reinstated or **december** be banned. Just pointing out a discrepancy. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/156 "2003-03-10T17:37:04Z")
Jeff, december dosent try to bait the mods into banning him, which is what the Revrend did. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/157 "2003-03-10T17:43:29Z")
Hmmm. I’d say he just baits more slowly. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/158 "2003-03-10T17:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Hmmm. I’d say he just baits more slowly. \*\* I may bait slowly, but I do it well. In fact, I’m a Master baiter. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/159 "2003-03-10T17:58:56Z")
Omigod! A sense of humor! :eek:😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/160 "2003-03-10T18:33:35Z")
And now that you’re retired, you’ve got even more time for Master baiting! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=9)