# Ignorance fights back; or, december, please EXPLAIN yourself? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808 "2003-03-07T22:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/161 "2003-03-10T18:43:02Z")
Rather than the PETA of the boards, as recent dicsussion would have it, **december** is in fact, the dark lord of the boards, the anti-Cecil, the leader of the forces of ignorance. As **Mtgman** reminds us, december’s only purpose is to spin, spin, spin. He’s got no interest in fair discussion, i.e., the increase of knowledge and the eradication of ignorance. His whole being is devoted to presenting selected facts to support the GOP agenda, and his favorite way to do it is to dishonestly pretend he’s aiming for real discussion. This creates and supports ignorance and uninformed opinion, exactly the antithesis of what we’re about here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/162 "2003-03-10T18:50:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Jeff, december dosent try to bait the mods into banning him, which is what the Revrend did. \*\* I don’t want to turn this into another **Rev.** thread but I don’t think he started out that way. Next time we get someone who is opinionated and thrives on controversy, we should point them toward **december** ’s posts right away. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/163 "2003-03-10T19:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nogginhead \* > \*\*Rather than the PETA of the boards, as recent dicsussion would have it, **december** is in fact, the dark lord of the boards, the anti-Cecil, the leader of the forces of ignorance. > \*\* **december** is like the dark lord. But, his readers here never are bored. …If you don’t mind the boast …People read every post, To see all their favorite myths gored. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/164 "2003-03-10T19:19:40Z")
Again you mischaracterize and assert that your position is truth and others “myth”. I don’t read your posts to see “my favorite myth gored”. I read your posts to see what stupid strawman I’ll have to refute so any lurkers will know with certainty that I don’t hold the position you represent me as holding. In this case, you put those who disagree with you in the position of presenting myths which you will gore. I like the picture of you as a bull though. You certainly produce enough bullshit. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/165 "2003-03-10T20:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Again you mischaracterize and assert that your position is truth and others “myth”. \*\* The line needed a one-syllable word. BTW here’s a column from [Bill O’Reilly](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billoreilly/bo20030308.shtml) which draws a parallel somewhat similar to mine. > [@](#): > > And then there’s the Pope. John Paul II recently came out and said that any war against Iraq would be “immoral.” Back in the '30s, Pope Pius XII actually supported Hitler politically, at least in the beginning of his rise when Pius was stationed in Germany. The Third Reich was considered a bulwark against Communism, which the Church greatly feared. Subsequently, Pius kept quiet about the atrocities of Hitler’s regime because he knew that the Vatican itself could easily be vanquished by the Huns. > > Today, John Paul deplores the violence that comes with any war but is at a loss to explain how terrorism and the states that enable it should be dealt with. Remember, the Pope did not approve of the military action against the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/166 "2003-03-10T20:47:53Z")
King Edward VIII was interested in reaching a diplomatic accommodation with Hitler; therefore today’s British government supports the mass murder of Jews. That’s _your_ argument, and it doesn’t help you that it’s O’Reilly’s, too. Now be a mensch for once. Or try to imagine what a mensch would do and copy that; that’s good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/167 "2003-03-10T20:47:59Z")
The story of Trent Lott’s fall from grace might make a more instructive example here. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/168 "2003-03-10T22:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nogginhead \* > \*\* december’s only purpose is to spin, spin, spin. He’s got no interest in fair discussion, i.e., the increase of knowledge and the eradication of ignorance. His whole being is devoted to presenting selected facts to support the GOP agenda, and his favorite way to do it is to dishonestly pretend he’s aiming for real discussion. This creates and supports ignorance and uninformed opinion, exactly the antithesis of what we’re about here. \*\* Although the above might be a good description of december, what is so vastly amusing about it is that it is a perfect description of the actions of the liberal thought police on these boards towards anyone who dares question their holy writ. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/169 "2003-03-10T23:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Although the above might be a good description of december, what is so vastly amusing about it is that it is a perfect description of the actions of the liberal thought police on these boards towards anyone who dares question their holy writ. \*\* And? Who is stopping you from pitting these “liberal thought police”? Who is stopping you from saying they should be banned? For that matter, who are these “liberal thought police”? Screen names if you please. And what is “their holy writ”? I think you may find they, and their writ, draw criticism as well, especially if, instead of actually debating, they just try to stuff their opponents into old jeans and plaid shirts and prop them up in cornfields like **december** does. As I mentioned, bad faith in a debate is independent of ideology and it is offensive no matter who is doing it. Given the tendancy of the posters on this board to speak up and let it be known when they were offended, I’d guess that anyone who continually tries to force people into ideological boxes, which often don’t resemble their real positions, so they can refute the strawman, like **december** does, instead of addressing their actual points will draw some heat. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/170 "2003-03-11T00:55:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Although the above might be a good description of december, what is so vastly amusing about it is that it is a perfect description of the actions of the liberal thought police on these boards towards anyone who dares question their holy writ. \*\* Is there a neat Latin phrase for this? “Look, X is doing this. It is bad faith and wrong” “Oh, may be. But it is amusing that Y does it too” (WTF? Are you insinuating _I_ belong to Y?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/171 "2003-03-11T01:00:31Z")
Ever notice when someone really nails him, and he can’t weasel back out of it, THAT’S when he posts his limericks? I dont’ find them cute, I find them annoying. He should just change his user name to **disengenious** and have done with it. If **december** really wants to prove that John Paul II is an anti-semite who supports Saddam, then perhaps he should stop bringing up past church history. (Which others have also found fault with). His sources are almost always opinion pieces and op eds from third rate, biased rags. I don’t give a SHIT that he’s right wing. I DO give a shit that he constantly manipulates, weasels and spins. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/172 "2003-03-11T01:02:40Z")
ACtually, I usually learn a great deal from the threads december starts. No, I don’t agree with him very often, and I can appreciate the disdain for his style, the fact is december’s posts do engender discussion about some very interesting topics. Ideally december would broach the subjects in a maybe a less baiting manner, but I would prefer that he bring them up in his unique style as opposed to simply not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/173 "2003-03-11T01:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > \*\*Is there a neat Latin phrase for this? > “Look, X is doing this. It is bad faith and wrong” > “Oh, may be. But it is amusing that Y does it too” > > (WTF? Are you insinuating _I_ belong to Y?) \*\* Sounds like you’re describing the [Tu Quoque](http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/tuquoque.html) fallacy. [Here’s](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html) [some more](http://www.swif.uniba.it/lei/foldop/foldoc.cgi?tu+quoque) [examples](http://www.cuyamaca.net/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/tuquoque.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/174 "2003-03-11T02:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*And? Who is stopping you from pitting these “liberal thought police”? Who is stopping you from saying they should be banned? \*\* Why in God’s name would I bother??? Their minds are made up, just like december. The only way to learn from them is to watch the arguement develop and take points from both sides. That’s why I’ve been objecting to the way december is being treated, the responses rarely deal with what he says, pro or con, instead they focus on december. > [@](#): > > Sounds like you’re describing the Tu Quoque fallacy. Not in my case, because I’m an observer of both sides. I love how they both do the same thing and then scream at the other side for doing it. Very few people in this world want to think, because doing so would entail the possibility thay their cherished notions are wrong. What people want is a haven in the warm, comforting bosom of having their views validated by others. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/175 "2003-03-11T02:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weirddave_ Not in my case, because I’m an observer of both sides. That would appear to be a lie. You’ve spent a good number of posts here taking sides and abusing those who disagree with your “take” on matters. You cannot imply objectivity just because the discussion has moved on to a new page. Your hands are already stained. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/176 "2003-03-11T02:39:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*That would appear to be a lie. You’ve spent a good number of posts here taking sides and abusing those who disagree with your “take” on matters. You cannot imply objectivity just because the discussion has moved on to a new page. Your hands are already stained. \*\* It must be fascinating to live in a reality as fluid as yours. Tell me, is anything the same day to day, or do you change everything at your convience? My participation in that thread has been to be critical of the way december is treated for being december, criticizing people for not responding to the subject, documenting your bald faced lies ( which you procede to ignore, as if that would make them go away) and responding to your insults. How you get from that to taking sides on the issue of weather the Pope is antisemetic or not is a mystery to me. Do you have any reading comprehension ability at all? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/177 "2003-03-11T02:46:59Z")
**Guinastasia** : He doesn’t need to bring up past church history. The fact that it took them 45 years to even recognize Israel is quite enough for a lot of Jews, and a lot of non Jews, like myself. He made a legitimate point, even if he did so in an extreme and provocative manner. Instead of taking him up on it, you pitted him. This is immature in the extreme but apparently, since it’s **december** , it’s allowed. If you’re looking for everyone to join hands and sing “Kumbaya”, well, you shouldn’t be hanging out in Great Debates. Re **Coldfire’s** baiting remark: that was by a wide margin the most disgusting piece of behavior by a mod I’ve ever seen here. And I’ve been here a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/178 "2003-03-11T02:55:51Z")
Oh get over yourself, **pantom**. I’m not an appologist for John Paul II, but for god sakes, just because Catholics in the past have been anti-Israel and sometimes anti-semite, that makes it okay to be anti-Catholic? Not in my book. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/179 "2003-03-11T02:59:35Z")
“Get over yourself?” Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Sheesh! It wasn’t an anti-Catholic remark: it was directed at its governance, specifically, the Vatican. I was raised Catholic and my family’s Catholic, and none of us would defend the Church’s record re the Jews. Quite the opposite. And none of us would consider that to be taking an anti-Catholic position. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808/180 "2003-03-11T03:00:04Z")
mtgman: That was an excellent and cogent analysis rebuttung my earlier remark. I believe that to the larger degree you are correct and I am in error. fuck, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-fights-back-or-december-please-explain-yourself/159808.md?page=10)