# Ignorance, hatred, stupidity ruin cultural awareness day at my son's school. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289 "2015-01-30T00:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/21 "2015-01-30T08:11:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Schools should not be celebrating cultures that treat women as second class citizens, believe outright lies about how the world works, and want to attack and kill people based on their beliefs or skin colour. That could be difficult in Christian America, but they should at least try. > > Get _all_ religion out of schools. Get all misogynistic (or racist, or homophobic, or whatever) cultural teaching out of schools. An event to celebrate the hijab should be no more acceptable than a day celebrating female genital mutilation. Or Paul’s teachings that women should be silent in church, or the (thankfully almost defunct) Hindu teaching that women should throw themselves on their husband’s funeral pyre. Secular Muslims where the hijab, you racist prick. That is the whole point of these things, to fight the ignorance of the shitheads like you. People like you are part of the problem, not the solution. You only make things worse. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/22 "2015-01-30T08:53:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Secular Muslims where the hijab, you racist prick. > > That is the whole point of these things, to fight the ignorance of the shitheads like you. > > People like you are part of the problem, not the solution. You only make things worse. I’m going to assume you will say the Hijab is not oppressive to women. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/23 "2015-01-30T08:57:27Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > That’s not technically racism. Still, if they were to shut down the Muslims but still allow Sikhs and all the others, that would definitely be discrimination. As for me, I don’t think any of this religious nonsense should be portrayed positively in a school, a place devoted to _learning_. Multi-culturalism runs into problems when said cultures are prudish/sexist/misogynist/homophobic/otherwise retrograde. So, as usual, everyone involved is missing the point. No, you are. This Muslim girl goes to this school. She has as much right to share about her culture as anyone else. If multiculturalism just means “cultures I accept” then it isn’t multiculturalism. If it means removing religion, which is almost always the most significant portion of a culture, it’s just a monoculture, where you’ve made religion into a more. Schools are about learning, and part of what you learn is how to be a good citizen. You don’t just memorize facts in school. You learn how to interact with the world. And part of that means learning about cultures other than your own, those you may even significantly disagree with. Learning about other cultures is pretty much THE solution to bigotry against those cultures. It is lack of knowledge that lets you pretend that people who do X are evil. Of course, some people are intentionally ignorant, but that’s why you have to start early. It is lack of education that has you equate the hijab with a purely religious issue, and one exclusively about subjugating women. As I pointed out to **Steophan** , secular Muslims often wear the hijab. It’s a symbol of cultural oppression of women _to you_, not necessarily so to them. Considering these women are going up in front of a school to talk about why they wear the hijab, it seems a lot like it is their choice, does it not? Now, maybe they’ll go up there and talk about how men are lustful creatures and they wear the hijab to defend themselves. But I bet they won’t, because that is not the reason I’ve ever heard anyone give for wearing one. This isn’t the burqa or the nijab. This is their hair being covered, not their face or body. And, even if they do, so what? Now you actually know that they do so for a reason you find offensive. How are you worse off? It’s not as if the students are allowed to proselytize. They are, in fact, spreading knowledge about their culture. And spreading knowledge is how we learn, and learning is what school is about. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/24 "2015-01-30T09:02:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m going to assume you will say the Hijab is not oppressive to women. There are actually plenty of Muslim women who say so, and apparently not just the conservative ones either. I mean, perhaps it was started as a tool of oppression (I don’t know either way), but that doesn’t mean it has to remain that way, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/25 "2015-01-30T09:02:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, you are. This Muslim girl goes to this school. She has as much right to share about her culture as anyone else. If multiculturalism just means “cultures I accept” then it isn’t multiculturalism. If it means removing religion, which is almost always the most significant portion of a culture, it’s just a monoculture, where you’ve made religion into a more. > > Schools are about learning, and part of what you learn is how to be a good citizen. You don’t just memorize facts in school. You learn how to interact with the world. And part of that means learning about cultures other than your own, those you may even significantly disagree with. > > Learning about other cultures is pretty much THE solution to bigotry against those cultures. It is lack of knowledge that lets you pretend that people who do X are evil. Of course, some people are intentionally ignorant, but that’s why you have to start early. > > It is lack of education that has you equate the hijab with a purely religious issue, and one exclusively about subjugating women. As I pointed out to **Steophan** , secular Muslims often wear the hijab. It’s a symbol of cultural oppression of women _to you_, not necessarily so to them. > > Considering these women are going up in front of a school to talk about why they wear the hijab, it seems a lot like it is their choice, does it not? Now, maybe they’ll go up there and talk about how men are lustful creatures and they wear the hijab to defend themselves. But I bet they won’t, because that is not the reason I’ve ever heard anyone give for wearing one. This isn’t the burqa or the nijab. This is their hair being covered, not their face or body. > > And, even if they do, so what? Now you actually know that they do so for a reason you find offensive. How are you worse off? It’s not as if the students are allowed to proselytize. They are, in fact, spreading knowledge about their culture. > > And spreading knowledge is how we learn, and learning is what school is about. so you’d be ok with catholics coming into a public school and explaning the need for confession and/or communion? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/26 "2015-01-30T09:04:02Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > There are actually plenty of Muslim women who say so, and apparently not just the conservative ones either. > > I mean, perhaps it was started as a tool of oppression (I don’t know either way), but that doesn’t mean it has to remain that way, does it? any practice which sets women apart from men is going to be oppressive because it creates categories ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/27 "2015-01-30T09:49:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Secular Muslims where the hijab, you racist prick. > > That is the whole point of these things, to fight the ignorance of the shitheads like you. > > People like you are part of the problem, not the solution. You only make things worse. Your ignorance needs fighting, you misogynistic fucktard. I don’t care whether it’s the religion or the secular culture that’s oppressive to women, it needs to be opposed not celebrated. The individual may want to wear the hijab for personal reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a potent symbol of oppression, and something that should not be supported. Note that I’ve not called for it to be banned (although I wouldn’t necessarily oppose such a call, there’s some justification for banning excessively offensive clothing, but it would have to be done in a way that doesn’t single out Muslims, or women), just that it should not be celebrated. Not all cultures are equal, and not all are worthy of celebration. Congratulations on another failed attempt to shut down debate by calling your opponent racist. That’s idiotic for two reasons. Firstly, it’s false, and secondly, it has no bearing on whether or not my argument is valid. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/28 "2015-01-30T09:53:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so you’d be ok with catholics coming into a public school and explaning the need for confession and/or communion? I’d be just as okay as I would be explaining the significance of the hijab. That is to say, I wouldn’t be actively for it or against it, but it sure beats (let me find a Catholic analogy here), say, protesting against teaching about confession by screaming that Catholics are not real Christians but are idolaters who worship Satan, and telling “real” Christians to pull out their children from the school in protest. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/29 "2015-01-30T09:55:21Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I mean, perhaps it was started as a tool of oppression (I don’t know either way), but that doesn’t mean it has to remain that way, does it? No, it does not. The hijab as an article of clothing certainly could outlive its origins, but I think that would require the _rejection_ of its cultural significance. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/30 "2015-01-30T10:01:43Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, it does not. The hijab as an article of clothing certainly could outlive its origins, but I think that would require the _rejection_ of its cultural significance. Exactly. Muslim women in the West wearing the hijab or other coverings, and claiming it’s a symbol of personal freedom, rings rather hollow when women elsewhere are forced, due to the same religion and culture, to wear the burqa on pain of death. I’m not saying ban it. I’m saying that the individuals who wear it through choice should think again, and that they should be horrified by what it represents, and embarrassed to wear it. It’s not about personal modesty - if it were, the style of the covering wouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/31 "2015-01-30T10:02:06Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’d be just as okay as I would be explaining the significance of the hijab. That is to say, I wouldn’t be actively for it or against it, but it sure beats (let me find a Catholic analogy here), say, protesting against teaching about confession by screaming that Catholics are not real Christians but are idolaters who worship Satan, and telling “real” Christians to pull out their children from the school in protest. Public school is not supposed to be the place for religious platform ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/32 "2015-01-30T10:17:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Public school is not supposed to be the place for religious platform I didn’t see anything about it being a public school. But even so, a general rule is that most situations are different from each other. Is the public well served by dispelling ignorance amongst its students? This is not like an intrusive scenario where students are either told what to believe or forced to study a religion for the whole year. The ideal situation would be that there would be no confusion in the first place to necessitate talking about the hijab. But it’s certainly better than likening it to a Jihad or otherwise getting all bent out of shape. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/33 "2015-01-30T10:22:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I didn’t see anything about it being a public school. But even so, a general rule is that most situations are different from each other. Is the public well served by dispelling ignorance amongst its students? This is not like an intrusive scenario where students are either told what to believe or forced to study a religion for the whole year. > > The ideal situation would be that there would be no confusion in the first place to necessitate talking about the hijab. But it’s certainly better than likening it to a Jihad or otherwise getting all bent out of shape. i get the sense that trying to reason with you is a waste of time ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/34 "2015-01-30T10:37:00Z")
Thus the economy of reason in your posts so far. I can’t even tell what you’re advocating. Should students not know about any religious practices at all? Then we may as well not teach about the Late Roman Empire or Sepoy Rebellion at all. If on the other hand, we should inform students about religious practices to some extent, where would you draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/35 "2015-01-30T10:39:21Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Thus the economy of reason in your posts so far. I can’t even tell what you’re advocating. Should students not know about any religious practices at all? Then we may as well not teach about the Late Roman Empire or Sepoy Rebellion at all. If on the other hand, we should inform students about religious practices to some extent, where would you draw the line? You don’t think the Hijab is oppressive, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/36 "2015-01-30T10:41:46Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You don’t think the Hijab is oppressive, do you? In general, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/37 "2015-01-30T10:48:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In general, yes. Then why does it need to be given a platform? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/38 "2015-01-30T10:50:10Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > There are actually plenty of Muslim women who say so, and apparently not just the conservative ones either. > > I mean, perhaps it was started as a tool of oppression (I don’t know either way), but that doesn’t mean it has to remain that way, does it? I guess that’s why the female project manager whose husband is a stay at home dad in a mixed race marriage wears the hijacked while out cycling with me? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/39 "2015-01-30T11:08:27Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I guess that’s why the female project manager whose husband is a stay at home dad in a mixed race marriage wears the **hijacked** while out cycling with me? Freudian slip? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/40 "2015-01-30T11:11:34Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Freudian slip? :eek: No, a hijab is worn around the head, a slip is worn around the hips. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289.md?page=3)