# Ignorance of Labor Economics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993 "2011-08-08T21:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/1 "2011-08-08T21:21:17Z")
This is just a complaint; it doesn’t fit in any of the other forums. Why do [people believe low-paying jobs are hard to fill](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14116227&posted=1#post14116227)? Why the angst over how the lettuce will get picked, how the drywall will get hung, how the floors will get mopped, if suddenly all the illegal immigrants go home? News flash: there is always a surplus of people who can do jobs like that. Always. It’s why unemployment is so high among high-school dropouts. Think about it. If you accept the premise that society needs the unskilled, you should lobby against public education. Hey Jose, don’t go to engineering school and invent a machine that dries cars! We need you out there with your towel doing it by hand! Ask yourself this: if these jobs are so hard to fill, _why is the pay so low_? Saying a low-paying job is hard to fill is like saying the mall is so crowded nobody goes there any more. Oh, and since this is the Pit, anyone who believes low-paying jobs are hard to fill has a head full of goddamned rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/2 "2011-08-08T21:44:45Z")
Well, first the issue is that certain jobs are hard to fill at the pay level that works for illegal immigrants. There is a shortage of quality workers at certain price points - case in point - the State of Georgia: > **[Survey Finds Widespread Farm Labor Shortages](https://www.gpb.org/news/2011/06/08/survey-finds-widespread-farm-labor-shortages)** > > The Georgia Agribusiness Council says nearly half of the farmers it surveyed don’t have enough workers to harvest their crops. About 130 fruit and vegetable growers, cotton and peanut processors and other agricultural employers responded to a survey... Georgia passed a tough anti-illigal-immigrant bill. The result has been a lot of workers leaving the state, and an inability of farmers to make up the difference. I don’t know how much that they would have to pay to get American citizens to come out to the fields, and I don’t know what the real impact on food prices (or drywall jobs) would be. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/3 "2011-08-08T21:45:50Z")
I think the sentiment is “it is difficult to fill low paying jobs with qualified people.” If you talk to anyone responsible for hiring I think they will agree. The job may not require any special training, but even so, there are a lot of fools who aren’t qualified to mop a floor. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/4 "2011-08-08T21:47:58Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Ask yourself this: if these jobs are so hard to fill, _why is the pay so low_? Saying a low-paying job is hard to fill is like saying the mall is so crowded nobody goes there any more. How much are you willing to pay for strawberries? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/5 "2011-08-08T21:55:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Well, first the issue is that certain jobs are hard to fill at the pay level that works for illegal immigrants. There is a shortage of quality workers at certain price points - case in point - the State of Georgia: > > [Survey Finds Widespread Farm Labor Shortages | Georgia Public Broadcasting](http://www.gpb.org/news/2011/06/08/survey-finds-widespread-farm-labor-shortages) > > Georgia passed a tough anti-illigal-immigrant bill. The result has been a lot of workers leaving the state, and an inability of farmers to make up the difference. I don’t know how much that they would have to pay to get American citizens to come out to the fields, and I don’t know what the real impact on food prices (or drywall jobs) would be. They couldn’t even get [ex-convicts to do the work](http://www.mariowire.com/economy/2011/06/27/georgia-program-tries-to-replace-migrant-workers-with-ex-convicts/). > [@](#): > > On the first two days, all the probationers quit by midafternoon ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/6 "2011-08-08T22:08:40Z")
For an example of a country with a similar economy to the U.S., look at Australia. [This list of wage rates in New South Wales](http://www.cfmeu-construction-nsw.com.au/pdf/wrtbandcistnapsa.pdf) shows that a builders’ labourer can expect at least $16.63 per hour – $20.79 per hour for casual work – and on top of that they will be getting money paid into a retirement fund regardless of how few hours they work. The Australian dollar is currently worth more than the U.S. dollar, so a full-time labourer is getting at least $35,000 per year in US dollars (including 4 weeks leave per year if full time). Yes, you can find Australians working for that money, and I suspect you’d find a lot of Americans happy to work for that money too. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/7 "2011-08-08T22:54:19Z")
Have you ever hung sheetrock (AKA drywall) for a living? Why do you think it’s such an easy, low-skill thing to do? See, the thing is, sheetrock has to be hung inside something, like a new house for instance or maybe a remodeled house or something along those lines. Those houses require skilled labor to build and the market for them is way down, if you haven’t noticed. Being able to hang sheetrock, which is a hell of a lot harder than you apparently think it is, doesn’t mean anything at all when there is no construction that requires sheetrock going on. Hanging sheetrock is one of the last things that gets done when a house is built; if houses aren’t being built, there ain’t no demand for sheetrockers. If sheetrockers can’t find jobs, neither can plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc., etc. If people can’t find jobs, they can’t buy stuff. How low a wage is for any damn job is meaningless when people can’t buy what the job produces. I might hire you to hang sheetrock at a nickel an hour; if I can’t sell the house you hung it in, then I overpaid you; your labor was worthless to me. Do you understand anything about this kind of stuff or is your head stuffed with something even more worthless than rocks? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/8 "2011-08-08T22:56:53Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > They couldn’t even get [ex-convicts to do the work](http://www.mariowire.com/economy/2011/06/27/georgia-program-tries-to-replace-migrant-workers-with-ex-convicts/). This implies they hired ex-convicts because they couldn’t get anyone else, but there’s no evidence of that. Besides, the population of ex-convicts is likely to contain an unusually high percentage of what economists refer to as ‘lazy pieces of shit’. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/9 "2011-08-08T23:09:05Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Have you ever hung sheetrock (AKA drywall) for a living? Why do you think it’s such an easy, low-skill thing to do? See, the thing is, sheetrock has to be hung inside something, like a new house for instance or maybe a remodeled house or something along those lines… Let’s suppose you’re right and I can’t hang drywall. That has exactly zero relevance. There are many people who can hang drywall. This is a perfect illustration of the fallacy. Nobody _wants_ to hang drywall for a living, but many people can, and it’s often the best choice for them. You seem to be assuming that I somehow look down on people who work with their hands for a living. Absolutely not! There is no dishonor in any honest living. But there is a lot of dishonor in going around thinking you deserve $50 an hour just because you’re worn out at the end of the day. Welcome to the cold hard world. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/10 "2011-08-08T23:11:08Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > How much are you willing to pay for strawberries? Not sure of the relevance, but I might pay up to $5 a pound for good strawberries. However, I do not believe I \*deserve \*strawberries at any particular price, the way some people do. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/11 "2011-08-08T23:23:00Z")
What, you think those peach farmers in Georgia are letting crops wither on the proverbial vine because they don’t have as advanced an understanding of economics as you? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/12 "2011-08-08T23:55:34Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What, you think those peach farmers in Georgia are letting crops wither on the proverbial vine because they don’t have as advanced an understanding of economics as you? Pretty much. When your entire economic model depends on your ability to break the law in perpetuity, and you have no Plan B, it’s either stupidity or organized crime, take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/13 "2011-08-09T00:19:44Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Pretty much. When your entire economic model depends on your ability to break the law in perpetuity, and you have no Plan B, it’s either stupidity or organized crime, take your pick. Or maybe they should try to get the law changed. Which is the entire point of what people are saying here. These illegal aliens who work the farms are not “taking away” jobs from Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/14 "2011-08-09T01:22:41Z")
I’m no economist, but it must suck to be a farmer. You plant your profit-maximizing crop in March or whatever, then something happens between then and October’s harvest like your labourers being deported or an infestation, and you’re screwed. Not like you can replant at that point. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/15 "2011-08-09T01:36:54Z")
OP, you seem to think high pay is equivalent to jobs that require a lot of skill. I can tell you that there are high paying jobs that do not require a lot of skill. I can tell you that the jobs that you think are “simple” or widely available do in fact require a lot of skill. Just because someone makes a lot of money does not mean they have a lot of skill. There are some people who make a lot of money because they have a lot of skill, yes. I can tell you that there are some people who make a lot of money and just sit around all day. Being a farmer or hanging dry wall or doing any manual labor requires skill too. You shouldn’t have this assumption that people who don’t have these high paying jobs are unintelligent, lacking in skill, or just lazy. Why in the world do you think low-paying jobs are easy? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/16 "2011-08-09T01:52:05Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Or maybe they should try to get the law changed. > > Which is the entire point of what people are saying here. These illegal aliens who work the farms are not “taking away” jobs from Americans. OK, I am completely ignorant of this sort of thing so I need to ask what must be an obvious question - if we have 2.5 illegal aliens in this state and even half of them are working, are they not taking jobs from legal residents? Setting aside whether or not anyone “wants” those jobs, under welfare for work or whatever they call it these days, wouldn’t they have to work those jobs if they were able? Or would those jobs just dry up if the employers couldn’t get illegal workers for illegal wages? ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/17 "2011-08-09T02:45:08Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Why the angst over how the lettuce will get picked, how the drywall will get hung, how the floors will get mopped, if suddenly all the illegal immigrants go home? News flash: there is always a surplus of people who can do jobs like that. Always. Well, I’m not too sure about that Skippy. A few years back, Maryland decided to inexplicably toughen up on its migrant / seasonal workers program. As a result, the Eastern Shore crab houses couldn’t find workers to pick crabs. The unemployed locals said “no way in hell” knowing that job entails the droning tedium of a sweat shop but instead of a sweat shop, you’re in a crab house replete with its nasty ol’ fish funk. So the business owners turned to women from a local prison to see if they’d be interested. They weren’t. The only recourse was to petition the state government to rework the laws which I believe they eventually did. From a 2010 article linked [here](http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Mexican-Guest-Workers-Take-Jobs-Few-Americans-Want-100873354.html): > [@](#): > > G.W. Hall & Son once employed American workers. No more. The company says seasonal tedious jobs don’t appeal to Americans anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/18 "2011-08-09T03:01:49Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > OP, you seem to think high pay is equivalent to jobs that require a lot of skill. I can tell you that there are high paying jobs that do not require a lot of skill. I can tell you that the jobs that you think are “simple” or widely available do in fact require a lot of skill. Just because someone makes a lot of money does not mean they have a lot of skill. > > There are some people who make a lot of money because they have a lot of skill, yes. I can tell you that there are some people who make a lot of money and just sit around all day. Being a farmer or hanging dry wall or doing any manual labor requires skill too. You shouldn’t have this assumption that people who don’t have these high paying jobs are unintelligent, lacking in skill, or just lazy. > > Why in the world do you think low-paying jobs are easy? When did I say they were easy? I said they required little skill and that this is why the supply of people who can do them exceeds the demand. While I agree that there are highly skilled people who do not make much money, as I’ve stated, these are the exception and not the rule. I assume nothing about any individual person. But you’re claiming there is no connection between skill and standard of living, which is just nutty. I will make one modification to my argument: skill has to be defined in relation to what the market demands. In 1960 there were a lot of very skilled hatmakers who were about to be thrown out of work because people just decided they didn’t want to wear hats any more. Wages are determined by the supply of a particular skill and the demand for it. In the case of unskilled jobs, there is _by definition_ a much larger supply of potential workers than for skilled jobs, and therefore the wages are lower. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/19 "2011-08-09T03:13:32Z")
> [@minlokwat](#): > > Well, I’m not too sure about that Skippy. > > A few years back, Maryland decided to inexplicably toughen up on its migrant / seasonal workers program. As a result, the Eastern Shore crab houses couldn’t find workers to pick crabs. > > The unemployed locals said “no way in hell” knowing that job entails the droning tedium of a sweat shop but instead of a sweat shop, you’re in a crab house replete with its nasty ol’ fish funk. > > So the business owners turned to women from a local prison to see if they’d be interested. They weren’t. > > The only recourse was to petition the state government to rework the laws which I believe they eventually did. > > From a 2010 article linked [here](http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Mexican-Guest-Workers-Take-Jobs-Few-Americans-Want-100873354.html): These types of stories always get trotted out whenever there is some legislation pending that will affect illegal immigration one way or the other. If businesses can’t stay afloat paying a market wage to legal workers, then they shouldn’t be in business. Isn’t that what liberals are always on about these days - a living wage? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/20 "2011-08-09T03:18:49Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Or maybe they should try to get the law changed. They’ve certainly tried many times, and no doubt many in Congress would personally like to change it, but they keep running into the inconvenient fact that most people think there are already too many unskilled immigrants in the country, especially with unemployment at 9-10%. Go figure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993.md?page=2)