# Ignorance of Labor Economics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993 "2011-08-08T21:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/61 "2011-08-12T03:11:01Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vwIL3Tr3N9Y/hqdefault.jpg "Colbert Testifies Before Congress 9-24-10") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwIL3Tr3N9Y) Stephen Colbert testifies before Congress ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/62 "2011-08-12T13:43:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And how many hours/days/weeks do you offer? It was basically for the summer. Primarily painting, replacing wood on the house, etc. Asked three unemployed people I know. Couldn’t find anyone to do the work. One says he had a “bad back,” which is news to me. The other wanted more money. The third said he was “too busy,” which is interesting because he doesn’t seem to do anything all day. As far as I can tell, each sits at home all day, playing on the computer and watching movies. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/63 "2011-08-12T15:15:04Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It was basically for the summer. How many hours a day? How many days a week? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/64 "2011-08-12T15:33:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > How many hours a day? How many days a week? Hell, I don’t know. I just needed some work done. Would have been happy with 8-10 hours per day. Ended up doing much of it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/65 "2011-08-12T16:09:24Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Nobody will give you the real number because everyone’s got an agenda. But if you stop to think that it surely takes less than three minutes to pick a pound of strawberries, including breaks, you could raise a berry picker’s wage from $8 to $12 an hour and it would only increase the labor cost by $0.20 a pound. I have no idea how long it takes to produce a pound of berries but I do know that whatever it costs the producer, the cost if multiplied by the supply chain. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/66 "2011-08-12T16:18:07Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Anyway, even if strawberries did go up to $10 a pound, that doesn’t affect my argument that unskilled jobs are easy to fill. If the job goes away because the product is too expensive, then there is no longer a job to fill. I’m not saying that’s good, but again it doesn’t impinge on my argument. I have no idea how much it costs to produce a peck of strawberries but doesn’t it take away from your thesis if you have so much trouble filling these jobs that the jobs actually move to Chile? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/67 "2011-08-12T17:14:45Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Here’s an experiment to try: > > 1. Talk to an unemployed friend who claims to want a job. > 2. Offer them a job. I would say that for a lot of unemployed people, it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/68 "2011-08-12T18:19:46Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I thought crab already was a luxury good. > > Yes, certain goods are priced out of the market when labor costs rise. For example, I’ve been trying to fill the position of scullery maid/fellatrix for years, while offering room and board and $20 a week. No takers yet. And yet, I struggle on even though blowjobs are priced as a luxury good. > > In the future if you want to continue to consume labor intensive goods and services where productivity can’t be increased by automation, you’re going to have to resign yourself to paying higher and higher prices in the coming decades, because global wages aren’t likely to fall any time soon, rather the reverse. Get married and you will fill the position for free. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/69 "2011-08-12T18:22:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have no idea how much it costs to produce a peck of strawberries but doesn’t it take away from your thesis if you have so much trouble filling these jobs that the jobs actually move to Chile? There are lots of farms in Michigan that sell you strawberries that you go out and pick yourself. There are lots of people who do it to save money. Americans will work hard to save money or even not make a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/70 "2011-08-12T20:16:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There are lots of farms in Michigan that sell you strawberries that you go out and pick yourself. There are lots of people who do it to save money. Americans will work hard to save money or even not make a lot. Sure, and next summer I’ll probably take my (then) five year old daughter berry picking. There’s a huge difference between doing something for an hour or two as a fun diversion and sixty hours a week as a job. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/71 "2011-08-12T22:10:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Farmers are going to produce strawberries when their costs and prices are in line that they make a profit that they can live with. The issues isn’t whether you think you “deserve” strawberries at a certain price, but whether people _will_ buy strawberries in sufficient numbers at a particular price to make it worth the trouble for the farmer. > > So the question isn’t whether you personally are willing to pay a certain price for strawberries, but whether strawberries will be a scarce luxury item, or a cheap commodity, or not worth producing at all. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, maybe I am a victim of agro industry propoganda but how much of the berry farmer’s expenses does labor costs represent? > [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > I used strawberries as an example because in California they are a crop that is widely known to be harvested cheap because illegal immigrants do the labor. > [@Algher](#): > > Strawberries are a great example, though. They are labor intensive, can’t be machine picked… [Currently.](http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20025402-1.html) Every fruit growing industry group is investing in robotic research. In five to ten years time, most fruit harvested in the United States will be picked robotically. Yields will be dramatically improved, quality of every individual peck of fruit will be better, the price will stay the same or rise only slightly and “productivity” (i.e. fruit harvested per person employed) will rise. And everyone currently employed picking strawberries will be out of a job. Oh, and since this is the Pit, if you think that the tens of thousands of people employed will all get jobs fixing the robotics strawberry harvesters - fuck you right in the ear with an automatic threshing machine. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/72 "2011-08-12T22:27:09Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would say that for a lot of unemployed people, it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours. Then they don’t appear to be all that concerned about earning a living, do they? When my husband (a pilot production engineer) was unemployed in 2008, he worked for awhile at the local fair, for $8 per hour. Hours were posted weekly so while he knew how long the job would run, he didn’t know how many actual hours he would get. But for him, any work is better than no work, even tho he was still getting unemployment. Two months later he got a job back in his field for over six figures. I’d say most of the guys that **Crafter\_Man** are not the sort to qualify for that kind of salary so why they would turn down any job? Has to be that it’s just better to sit around and collect unemployment. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/73 "2011-08-13T00:08:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It was basically for the summer. Primarily painting, replacing wood on the house, etc. Asked three unemployed people I know. Couldn’t find anyone to do the work. One says he had a “bad back,” which is news to me. The other wanted more money. The third said he was “too busy,” which is interesting because he doesn’t seem to do anything all day. As far as I can tell, each sits at home all day, playing on the computer and watching movies. Right. And all the women who didn’t want to date you were lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/74 "2011-08-13T01:56:54Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Then they don’t appear to be all that concerned about earning a living, do they? Perhaps, it would depend on their individual financial circumstances. > [@](#): > > When my husband (a pilot production engineer) was unemployed in 2008, he worked for awhile at the local fair, for $8 per hour. Hours were posted weekly so while he knew how long the job would run, he didn’t know how many actual hours he would get. But for him, any work is better than no work, even tho he was still getting unemployment. Did he report the days that he worked to the state Department of Labor? Because if he did, he may very well have been worse off for taking the work. Anyway, what if he had been offered $7.75 per hour to shovel manure for two hours a day with a 3 hour bus ride every day for $5 each way? Would he have taken this job netting him $5.50 per day on the theory that any work is better than no work? Of course not. This is an extreme example, but the point is that depending on one’s individual financial circumstances, it’s not necessarily unreasonable for an unemployed person to turn down work. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/75 "2011-08-13T02:22:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Did he report the days that he worked to the state Department of Labor? Because if he did, he may very well have been worse off for taking the work. He told them about it but it apparently was small enough that they didn’t take anything out of his checks. > [@](#): > > Anyway, what if he had been offered $7.75 per hour to shovel manure for two hours a day with a 3 hour bus ride every day for $5 each way? Would he have taken this job netting him $5.50 per day on the theory that any work is better than no work? > > Of course not. This is an extreme example, but the point is that depending on one’s individual financial circumstances, it’s not necessarily unreasonable for an unemployed person to turn down work. Your two paragraphs do not go together (and they have nothing to do with your statement that it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours). There are very good reasons to turn down the job above whether one is getting unemployment or not, which have nothing to do with anyone’s individual financial circumstances. It is also a far too extreme example to explain why **Crafter\_Man** ’s offers of employment were turned down. Damn, I keep typing Crater\_Man… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/76 "2011-08-13T13:16:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > He told them about it but it apparently was small enough that they didn’t take anything out of his checks. That’s really strange. Which state was your husband claiming benefits in? > [@](#): > > (and they have nothing to do with your statement that it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours). That was not my statement. I said that “ **for a lot of unemployed people** , it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours.” Not for all unemployed people – it depends on one’s individual circumstances. > [@](#): > > There are very good reasons to turn down the job above whether one is getting unemployment or not, which have nothing to do with anyone’s individual financial circumstances. You seemed to be claiming that “any work is better than no work.” Or at least that was the claim for your husband. My “extreme” example shows that your claim is false. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/77 "2011-08-13T15:13:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have no idea how much it costs to produce a peck of strawberries but doesn’t it take away from your thesis if you have so much trouble filling these jobs that the jobs actually move to Chile? I see your point, but what I was arguing against was the idea that if nobody will do a job for $8 an hour, then somehow the work won’t get done. The strawberries will still come to the grocery store, just not from American farms. If we reach a state where nobody needs to do a crap job for crummy wages, won’t that be a good thing? Back in the 1940s, the United Mine Workers made a deal with the coal companies, in which the existing miners got raises, job security, etc., and in exchange the UMW promised not to fight automation, knowing it would reduce the number of jobs. I don’t have the quote, but it was something to the effect that miners didn’t want their sons to do the same jobs they were doing. The posts I linked in the OP seem to want to head in the opposite direction, ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/78 "2011-08-13T22:44:26Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That’s really strange. Which state was your husband claiming benefits in? California. > [@](#): > > That was not my statement. I said that “ **for a lot of unemployed people** , it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours.” Not for all unemployed people – it depends on one’s individual circumstances. OK then - Your two paragraphs do not go together (and they have nothing to do with your statement that for a lot of unemployed people it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours). > [@](#): > > You seemed to be claiming that “any work is better than no work.” Or at least that was the claim for your husband. My “extreme” example shows that your claim is false. I haven’t made that claim. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/79 "2011-08-13T23:07:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > California. So your husband never earned more than $25 per week with this $8 per hour job? i.e. He never worked a shift that was four hours or longer? > [@](#): > > OK then - Your two paragraphs do not go together I have no idea what your point is here. > [@](#): > > your statement that for a lot of unemployed people it’s just not worth the trouble of laboring for $11 per hour for an unknown number of hours What I am arguing is that for every unemployed person, there is a threshhold below which it’s reasonable for them to turn down work. This is most easily demonstrated with an extreme example. > [@](#): > > I haven’t made that claim. Here’s what you said: > [@](#): > > But for him, any work is better than no work, even tho he was still getting unemployment. Seems to me that this is clearly false. That there is some work which is worse than no work for anyone. Including your husband. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993/80 "2011-08-14T01:26:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So your husband never earned more than $25 per week with this $8 per hour job? i.e. He never worked a shift that was four hours or longer? Obviously after three years I cannot tell you exactly how many hours he worked, but I’m pretty sure he worked more than that. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what your point is here. That the two paragraphs you wrote prior to when I said that the first time do not didn’t work together. > [@](#): > > What I am arguing is that for every unemployed person, there is a threshhold below which it’s reasonable for them to turn down work. This is most easily demonstrated with an extreme example. Since we started out with something that wasn’t even close to an extreme example, using them is approaching the use of a strawman. At what point do reasons become excuses? > [@](#): > > Here’s what you said: > > Seems to me that this is clearly false. That there is some work which is worse than no work for anyone. Including your husband. Really? You know that how? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-of-labor-economics/591993.md?page=5)