# Ignorance on this board **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2001, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158 "2001-12-06T02:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/41 "2001-12-06T16:58:20Z")
You’re right, as usual, **Tamerlane** … it’s just that the bigots have a way of expressing their opinions so as to make it seem that those are the generally accepted views and that anyone who doesn’t agree is a radical, leftist, conspiracy-theorist fool (or whatever). They’re crafty devils, they are. Well, I’m off to reflect upon **Tamerlane** ’s words of wisdom and return to battle the bigots another day. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/42 "2001-12-06T18:04:19Z")
It seems to me that too many posters here are looking at the world through a filter of optimistic naivete. You seem to beleive that if you cvould just sit Israelis, Arabs, and Americans at a table together, they would behave rationally and overcome fear and prejudice. Why do you all assume that the dancing Palestinians who celebrated 9/11 are just a tiny minority of the population? How can you ignore the suicide bombings, the rock-throwing, the interviews with proud parents of dead bombers, the incendiary rhetoric of the Arab media? What evidence do you have that the majority of the Palestinian and Arab people are being unfairly maligned, that, in fact, they want to live in peaceful coexistence with the Israelis? The world is a horrible place, inahbited by irrational people who let fear and hatred get the better of them. How many Americans have used the phrases “sand nigger” and “camel jockey” in private conversations in the past three months? How many Americans oppose John Ashcroft’s draconian measures and the unjust imprisonment of Arab men on mere suspicion or rumors of possible connections with terrorism? The sad fact is that every nation and every ethnic group harbors fear, bigotry, racism, religious zeal. NOBODY is innocent. A few, a very few, people in each group try to reject hate and see beyond stereotypes, but not the majority. You are all fooling yourselves if you think that humanity is anything other than a race of savages covered by a veneer of civilization. We are barbarians, all of us. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/43 "2001-12-06T18:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > We are barbarians, all of us. Which, of course, does not excuse or justify barbaric behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/44 "2001-12-06T19:05:57Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by pennylane \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by saffostarr \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > You don’t view this as hypocrisy?\*\* > > Yes, I would, if I did really do something like that. I didn’t say that I wish to dance in the streets, just that I’m getting to the point where I might (although that was an exaggeration - I’m really just getting to the point where I might not defend Americans as strenuously as I have in the past). You’re right, dancing in the streets is on par with calling for the deaths of all Palestinians. > > I’m trying to say that I’m being dragged down to the level of the lowest people on this board… in effect becoming no better than them. And I think it’s a sad and a horrible thing… hard to believe it is happening to me. \*\* So, when you make hateful, thoughtless, inflammatory statements, your just exagerating because your upset. But if someone else does it, they’re racist, bloodthirsty assholes? Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/45 "2001-12-06T19:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > But of course, one might argue, why should they [the Palestinians] need to impress the western world? They are not westerners. IMO, this is where the Palestinian leadership has led the Palestinian people down the primrose path. The Palestinians do need to impress the western world. The Palestinians do not have the means to achieve an independent Palestinian state by military/terrorist means, and they are not going to achieve a viable Palestinian state in negotiations with the Israelis without western pressure on Israel. To get Western pressure, the Palestinians need Western sympathy, and they ain’t going to get it via suicide bombs. I’ve always been of the opinion that, had the Palestinians started singing “We Shall Overcome” in 1967, they would have had a state a decade ago. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/46 "2001-12-06T20:00:09Z")
I think it’s important to point out that **efrem** appears to have an agenda of his own which is not particularly well tied to a basis in fact. I had the [pleasure of disabusing him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=102374#post1885619) of one of the tenets of that agenda. And as far as generalizations go, I think it’s painfully easy to show what the Palestinians are up to. Palestine’s governing document is still the PLO Charter. Article 15 of the PLO Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Arafat promised in 1993 to remove that provision, but to date the Palestinians have not. One reason why it has not been removed is because the charter requres a 2/3 majority of representatives to amend it. Therefore, we can conclude that at least one third of Palestinan representatives of the Palestinian people are still all for the destruction of Israel. Since the issue appears to have _never_ been seriously discussed by the Palestinian representative body, I think it’s safe to conclude that the fraction is actually much higher than that. Either way, Palestine as it exists is based on the premise of the eventual destruction of Israel. And the Palestinians as a whole aren’t able or willing to change that premise. _Because that’s what they want._ They are about to get exactly what they deserve for consistently advocating violence over peace, but this sentence at least is just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/47 "2001-12-06T20:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*We are barbarians, all of us. \*\* I could not agree more. I can’t tell you how many people will ruin a good filet by having white wine with it. Barbarians. Efrem, I’m so glad you have made it to the pit. 'Cause here I am a bit more free to tell you where you can take your dog and pony show. You opened the GD thread with a legitimate debate topic, but it seems that you were not looking for a debate, but rather a consensus. When you found opposing points of view, you promplty stopped debating and started bullshitting your way through. So FUCK OFF IF YOU CAN’T TAKE IT, but don’t start accusing posters of things they did not do. No one implied that they thought any less of Palestinian poeple just because of their race. Everyone who disagreed with you spoke of TERRORIST acts, and the consequences of those acts. NOT ONE POSTER suggested that the killing of innocent people was a good thing, and EVERY ONE agrees that the situation sucks. If you feel there is no difference between Palestinian Terrorists and The Israeli government, then please present the reasons why you feel this way, and provide some answers when challenged. If you just go around complaining about how mean everyone is at the first sign of opposing opinion you will not get anywhere. Anytime you want to get back to a debate, I’ll be looking for ya. In the mean time, welcome to the hottest part of SDMB. Hope it’s warm enough for you. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/48 "2001-12-06T23:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > To get Western pressure, the Palestinians need Western sympathy, and they ain’t going to get it via suicide bombs. Truer words were never spoken. Arafat began to wise up in the mid 90s. Instead of suicide bombs his method of choice was “peaceful protests.” Children in the front, snipers hidden within. When the Israelis fire back, sure, the kids get hurt. And quite predictably, the west censures Israel. We did catch wind of this technique, so I suppose the PR men in the PLO decided to return to less subtle suicide bombings. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/49 "2001-12-07T01:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > The sad fact is that every nation and every ethnic group harbors fear, bigotry, racism, religious zeal. NOBODY is innocent. A few, a very few, people in each group try to reject hate and see beyond stereotypes, but not the majority. You are all fooling yourselves if you think that humanity is anything other than a race of savages covered by a veneer of civilization. We are barbarians, all of us. \*\* First, an apology for the coming quote-fest. When something’s been perfectly expressed, there’s no use trying to better it. **gobear** is correct except that each of us do have a choice. Yes, Palestinians were dancing in the street and yes, they are fanatic terrorists. Yes, Israelis have committed and condoned terrible acts of terrorism themselves. There’s enough of blood for everyone’s hands in the Middle East. America has had and continues to have stains on its character too, as does every country. And yes we are all guilty. When you witness evil and intolerance, it is not enough to say “I wasn’t involved.” You were involved. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” I, too, saw that CNN footage of Palestians celebrating 9/11. I also saw some individual interviews with ordinary Palestinians who were shocked and disgusted by what happened on 9/11. Private regrets, however, aren’t enough. It’s been said in another context that “Some are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them.” If you are on the spot and you witness evil or intolerance, _ **you** _ have a duty to oppose it even if you weren’t looking for a wrong to right. This usually isn’t easy and it may put you at personal risk. But you must act or your silence makes you complicit. If you do speak up, you may be surprised. There are probably many others who would like to but haven’t the courage to be the first. **gobear** Here’s where I disagree with you. Humans can learn and they can live up to their better natures. We indeed are all of us in the gutters but some of us, in fact a lot of us, at least know the stars are there, even if we can’t always see them. People do stand up for the right thing, I’m seeing it on this board right now. **Pennylane** don’t be so quick to give up on America. Even though America often falls short, it at least knows what the right thing is. I think America’s overall response has so far been to its great credit. Twenty years ago, or so, during the Iranian hostage crisis, there were serious outbreaks of anti-Iranian violence and discrimination. This time, every political leader from Bush on down has repeatedly and forcefully made the point that it would be against America’s principles to take our anger out on Arab-Americans and Afgan-Americans. Does that mean America’s perfect? No. It means America is trying. All of us everywhere around the world have a duty to be a voice for reason even when it seems no one is listening, _especially_ when it seems no one is listening. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158/50 "2001-12-07T01:55:33Z")
**Truth Seeker** : Well said. I do think progress has been made, however miniscule at times, both here and abroad. The world is a smaller place than it used to be and this is a good thing. - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-on-this-board/97158.md?page=2)