# Ignorance, War, Lies, and Fox News **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959 "2003-10-06T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Shill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Shill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Shill)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/41 "2003-10-07T13:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weird With Words \* > \*\* > As for the BBC, well, I have noticed that publicly funded, democratically run news organizations tend to be more accurate in their reporting than corporate news organizations. The reason for which should be obvious to anyone who isn’t blinded by free-market ideology: The former is run on the ideal that the public needs to know, and they try earnestly to inform the public with the best information they can find. The latter is run with only one motive, and that motive is profit. The best way to profit with news is to sell the news people want to hear._\* I dunno if you’ve heard much of the BBC/Government row in the states. Brief history: BBC suggested govt lied over Iraq (commonly suspected at the time). Govt was up in arms, made all sorts of moves to denounce the BBC but _none_ to demonstrate that it hadn’t lied. BBC fought. Govt is now widely accepted to have lied. The key to media is that it should inform. When the govt spread its lies about the rediculous 45-minute claim, it was its own state media that pointed out the truth. Please take a moment to be impressed at this example of a democratic free press, despite that nice Mr Blair’s best efforts. Anyways. Pro-govt lies all begin with the govt. It is they who put them out there. Thing is, they spoon-feed them to the press. So it gets in the media. And it’s a lot of effort to go investigating into the real truth when you’ve been handed a story on a plate. Also, most of the UK newspapers are a) biased in some direction and b) owned by someone with lots of money and influence. So a certain amount of bargaining/blackmail does go on in the press. After all, Blair can’t afford to be on the wrong side of Rupert Murdoch when he has the power to do a lot of political damage with his papers. I have worked at a newspaper, and guess what? They’re just trying to sell newspapers. If the nation’s in a fury over Iraq’s weapons, assume they exist and print stories about them. If the nation’s furious about govt lies, then that’s what the stories will be about. When I’m prime minister, we’ll have a totally transparent govt and it’ll all be cool. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/42 "2003-10-07T13:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*There is no need to claim that you are lying. Your claims lack credibility on their own, and need no proding from me. I provide a cite from a reputable news source, you give a cite from some flunky leftist web page. Oh, and from your memory. I have little doubt that usual crowd of malcontents will hail your ‘cite(s)’ as pravda, but those interested in facts will note that you don’t actually provide any. \*\* Newsweek is a “flunky, leftist” news source? Really. That’s kind of surprising since they broke the Monica Lewinsky story. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/43 "2003-10-07T13:05:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > **Well, whether Fox News in particular or not is to blame, I think this study really shoots a huge gaping hole in the concept of the "liberal media."** This statement is unfounded.\*\* > [@](#): > > At any rate, if one believes the purpose of the media in a democracy is to make the public better informed, it clearly failed here.\*\* More truth here. However, the news media did of course report in detail the many doubts, here and abroad about whether WMD in Iraq existed and posed a threat to the U.S., and foreign opposition was given a big play. There would have been more about domestic opposition except for the fact that the Democrats laid down and gave Bush what he wanted. It was naturally a bit difficult for reporters to fathom that a dictator would be so lunatic as to court his destruction, by giving the impression that he had terrible weapons that subsequent events are increasingly showing he didn’t have. I don’t see how this translates to disproving the concept of mainstream media liberal bias. Oh, and **elucidator**? Sometimes it helps to study the enemy in order to have a convincing means of attacking it. Have fun re-debating the Bush won/Gore won saga. Don’t bother asking who in either major party has made a strong push for revoking the Electoral College system, which created this mess in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/44 "2003-10-07T13:10:05Z")
Well the “liberal” media has pretty definitely laid down for Bush for the most part. they went right along with all the flag waving and sloganeering before the invasion. During the 2000 campaign the media spent most of its time bashing Gore and inventing phony stories about his “lies” while ignoring the lies and criminal history of Bush. Like Al Franken says in his book, unlike Al Gore, Bush’s lies weren’t even true. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/45 "2003-10-07T13:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Newsweek is a “flunky, leftist” news source? Really. That’s kind of surprising since they broke the Monica Lewinsky story. \*\* No, you missed some of the play there, **DtC**. **Brutus** rejected the information because it came from a leftist site merely _quoting_ Newsweek. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/46 "2003-10-07T13:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Newsweek is a “flunky, leftist” news source? Really. That’s kind of surprising since they broke the Monica Lewinsky story. \*\* No, you missed some of the play there, **DtC**. **Brutus** rejected the information because it came from a leftist site merely _quoting_ Newsweek. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/47 "2003-10-07T13:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Of course. You’re quite right. Correlation does not _prove_ causality. But its mighty damned _suggestive_, don’t you think? > > Of course, it might well be that the persons cited therein were utterly ignorant _before_ exposure to FOX, and remained in that blissful state ever after. > > (I remain entirely confident that you, yourself, are not a victim of any of those utterly vacuous premises.) > > As to examples of FOX news reporting falsehoods, you would have to ask someone who would be caught dead watching it. \*\* Or it might be that someone who was ignorant of the issues would be more likely to watch FOX because they found it’s presentation style more entertaining. I have to echo Scylla and John Mace here. It’s a little hypocritical to blame FOX news for spreading misconceptions based on nothing but circumstantial evidence and inuendo and then provided nothing but circumstantial evidence and inuendo to prove it. That said, FOX news does have a strong pro-America slant. While I do not believe their conservative reporting is any more or less accurate than the other major news networks, I suspect that most liberals dislike the network because it reminds them of the football jocks who used to beat them up in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/48 "2003-10-07T14:06:33Z")
No, they have an anti-American, pro-_Bush_ slant. Whether Fox perpetuates the misconceptions or not (and demagogues like Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity certainly do their best to spew propaganda) the network does virtually nothing to _dissuade_ its audience from their ignorant torpor. A news channel is supposed to inform, FNC seeks only to campaign for the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/49 "2003-10-07T14:33:10Z")
_Someone_ wrote “Al Gore” on the ballot, I’ll grant you that. Normally, when counting write-ins, canvassers prefer not to override a clear choice elswhere made properly, that’s why they get thrown out. Not that Democrats commit voter fraud, especially in the three heavily Democratic counties that Gore chose to count, oh no! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/50 "2003-10-07T14:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Shill \* > \*\*I dunno if you’ve heard much of the BBC/Government row in the states. Brief history: BBC suggested govt lied over Iraq (commonly suspected at the time). Govt was up in arms, made all sorts of moves to denounce the BBC but _none_ to demonstrate that it hadn’t lied. BBC fought. Govt is now widely accepted to have lied. \*\* Actually, we _have_ heard quite a bit about this uproar, and the Beeb comes out looking sleazier than you’ve suggested. Even the N.Y. Times (in a 9/25 article which they would love to sell you for $2.95) stated that the BBC reporter in question “admitted overstepping strict accuracy” and that the Blair administration was not shown to have lied. I would demand very high standards of any news organization, if I were paying hundreds of dollars in “license fees” every year to support them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/51 "2003-10-07T15:09:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\* It’s a little hypocritical to blame FOX news for spreading misconceptions based on nothing but circumstantial evidence and inuendo and then provided nothing but circumstantial evidence and inuendo to prove it. > \*\* I don’t understand this complaint. Evidence is material (physical clues, like a wallet with ID in it), circumstantial or testimonial. All we have in this case is testimonial, or the word of various posters about the circumstances they see, or think they see on Faux News. Testimony is often referred to as “inuendo” by those who don’t like the testimony. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/52 "2003-10-07T16:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > No, they have an anti-American, pro-_Bush_ slant. > > Whether Fox perpetuates the misconceptions or not (and demagogues like Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity certainly do their best to spew propaganda) the network does virtually nothing to _dissuade_ its audience from their ignorant torpor. A news channel is supposed to inform, FNC seeks only to campaign for the GOP. \*\* Could you provide a cite to specific examples? They also don’t do anything to disuade their audience of the notion that space aliens are responsible for 9/11. Is FOX reporting innaccurate information or do you feel that they are guilty of “selective reporting”? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > I don’t understand this complaint. Evidence is material (physical clues, like a wallet with ID in it), circumstantial or testimonial. All we have in this case is testimonial, or the word of various posters about the circumstances they see, or think they see on Faux News. What I would like to see would be specific articles or examples where FOX News misleaded it’s audience or encouraged the impressions the OP mentioned. Is it the content or the Red, White & Blue graphic laden, strapping all-American football hero, Wildest Police Videos style of reporting that people object to? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > Testimony is often referred to as “inuendo” by those who don’t like the testimony. Unsubstantiated testimony is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/53 "2003-10-07T16:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > MSMITH wrote: > I suspect that most liberals dislike the network because it reminds them of the football jocks who used to beat them up in high school. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/54 "2003-10-07T16:49:44Z")
Wouldn’t it have to follow that “most conservatives” like the network because it helps them feel like dumb jock bullies from high school? Careful with that brush, guys. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/55 "2003-10-07T16:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Wouldn’t it have to follow that “most conservatives” like the network because it helps them feel like dumb jock bullies from high school? Careful with that brush, guys. \*\* Yeah, but even the dumb jocks still got the hot cheerleaders. And that’s what it’s all really about, evolutionarily speaking of course.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/56 "2003-10-07T17:25:57Z")
The hot cheerleaders all get fat and bitchy. You can have 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/57 "2003-10-07T17:34:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*_Someone_ wrote “Al Gore” on the ballot, I’ll grant you that. Normally, when counting write-ins, canvassers prefer not to override a clear choice elswhere made properly, that’s why they get thrown out. Not that Democrats commit voter fraud, especially in the three heavily Democratic counties that Gore chose to count, oh no! \*\* Dammit! It just goes to further prove, a lie once perpetuated needs a thousand debunkings. To review: The overvotes referred to in the article we (thanks thrice **Desmo!** ) cited, are the kind where the person punched the hole next to the candidate’s name, and then punched the hole next to the write-in section, with the _same_ candidate’s name. Now, the vote-counting machines are programmed to discard these overvotes because they have two holes punched. But, according to Florida’s election laws, these ballots show _clear_ intent, and are perfectly legitimate to include in a recount. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/58 "2003-10-07T17:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > **I suspect that most liberals dislike the network because it reminds them of the football jocks who used to beat them up in high school.** Actually, I think Fox News reminds me more of the smaller jocks who followed the big jock around, always standing behind him when a confrontation was brewing, yelling such constructive things as “Yeah!” and “You tell him!” And when you ask “why?”, they ridicule you even more for asking such a silly question, when everyone knows the simple answer is “because we can.” These jock-cheerleaders have gotten a bit older, and a bit better at advancing their arguments. But not by much. And while we’re on the topic, y’know who PBS was? PBS was that kid who saw what was about to happen, and made the mistake of asking what the point to the violence was. And I call that a mistake because it’s just about the best way to get your ass kicked. Jocks hate it when you ask them to think. I’d keep going with this analogy, but I’d hate to rock the boat and piss the jocks off. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/59 "2003-10-07T19:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Wouldn’t it have to follow that “most conservatives” like the network because it helps them feel like dumb jock bullies from high school? Careful with that brush, guys. \*\* Well like most FOX programming, I imagine it’s popular because it appeals to the least common denomenator. And while we’re on the topic (that admittedly, I started:D) CNN - That annoying smart kid who thinks he knows everything BBC - The foreign exchange student PBS - That weird, effeminate, brooding kid in black that no one really gets but everyone knows is smarter than they are and who is always hanging out with the exchange students MSNBC - The kinda smart rich guy who hangs out with the jocks and who you know is going to Harvard because of his dad A&E - The weird art teacher Discovery Channel - The AV club kid Sci Fi Network - His friend Cartoon Network - The class buffoon Lifetime - The female gym teacher CBS - The crazy old professor no one listens to ABC and NBC - The smart jocks who feels the same way FOX does but know enough to keep their mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959/60 "2003-10-07T19:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > Cartoon Network - The class buffoon > \*\* Actually, that should be Comedy Central. They are the smart one of the pair. The ‘Ren’ to CN’s ‘Stimpy’. The ‘Buthead’ to CN’s ‘Beavis’. Anyhow, their newsworthiness is in their ability to mutter amusing side comments under their breath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-war-lies-and-fox-news/205959.md?page=4)