# Ignoring all birth certificates, which is your closest ancestor who can prove American citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723 "2018-10-30T14:40:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/21 "2018-10-30T19:08:01Z")
well most of my family came over in the 1600s but the first natural born citizen in my famiy was the Miami tribe princess in central Indiana (in what would later be the home base of the modern family) that the ancestor of the family ran off with to what would later be Michigan with ……. and they had 12 or so kids ……… ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/22 "2018-10-30T19:09:56Z")
My maternal grandfather’s grandfather came from Italy to the US sometime around the turn of the century. He’d be the most recent immigrant (great-great-grandfather). My maternal grandmother’s family has been in the US since the 1700s I believe (settlers from England to South Carolina and eventually to Tennessee). Less is known on my Dad’s side, though they were all in the US well before 1900. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/23 "2018-10-30T19:19:49Z")
No pie in this poll? ☹ Now back to the actual subject, how far back did the US start issuing naturalization documents? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/24 "2018-10-30T19:53:06Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Many people get their American passport by using their birth certificate as the proof of citizenship. I want to see how many Americans have documentation completely independent of their birth certificate (and their ancestors’ birth certificates). Let’s say I have a grandparent with naturalization papers. Without my birth certificate, how do I prove I’m a citizen? I can’t. My parents and I could have been born outside the US. I think your hypothetical is set up ignoring bow immigration and citizenship actually works. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/25 "2018-10-30T20:10:37Z")
My grandfather jumped ship in New Jersey in 1919. He became a self-taught engineer and went to work for RCA. In WWII he did some defense related work and it became a little embarrassing that he wasn’t a citizen, and he was sent to Canada so he could enter “normally” and be given citizenship. No idea how he got into Canada without a passport, but I suppose the Canadians were in on the game. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/26 "2018-10-30T20:14:27Z")
I believe all my maternal great-grandparents all come over on one boat or another. No idea if they ever became citizens, but I suspect that they did. Dad’s mom can trace her father’s line back to the late 1600’s in what became the US (although they detoured to Canada sometime after the Revolutionary War (possibly Loyalists?), and didn’t come back until the mid-to-late 1800s). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/27 "2018-10-30T20:23:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think your hypothetical is set up ignoring bow immigration and citizenship actually works. Yes, the hypothetical “ignoring all birth certificates” is counterfactual. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/28 "2018-10-30T20:56:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s say I have a grandparent with naturalization papers. Without my birth certificate, how do I prove I’m a citizen? I can’t. My parents and I could have been born outside the US. > > I think your hypothetical is set up ignoring bow immigration and citizenship actually works. I think the OP is saying your birth certificate is necessary, but not sufficient. You need to show a paper trail from a naturalized citizen to you. So grandpa’s naturalization papers, mom’s BC showing the US, and then your BC showing the US - congrats, you are a citizen! Assuming that if either you or your mom were born in Hawaii that you are presenting the long form certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/29 "2018-10-30T21:45:25Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I think the OP is saying your birth certificate is necessary, but not sufficient. You need to show a paper trail from a naturalized citizen to you. So grandpa’s naturalization papers, mom’s BC showing the US, and then your BC showing the US - congrats, you are a citizen! Assuming that if either you or your mom were born in Hawaii that you are presenting the long form certificate. No, I think he’s just asking how far back do you go until you find a naturalized citizen, one that has documentation. He assumes we all have birth certificates which would otherwise be sufficient. For me that would be great grandparents, but I have no idea if they ever received documentation of their naturalization. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/30 "2018-10-30T22:59:40Z")
Both my grandmothers were naturalized citizens. I’m not sure which port my maternal grandmother came through off hand. My paternal grandmother came through Baltimore. Her Irish citizenship by birth actually qualifies me for Irish citizenship. Proving that citizenship requires proof that includes birth certificates, though. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can’t. My parents and I could have been born outside the US. …and may still be US citizens even if not born inside the US. [Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html) from the State Department website. It’s a more complicated answer if born abroad not a clear no. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/31 "2018-10-30T23:15:43Z")
I’m not sure I understand the question. My mother’s ancestors immigrated from Ireland to Baltimore over 300 years ago, long before US citizenship existed. My great-great-great-great-great-grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War. I lost count of how many times, after stating I’m American, I’ve been asked “No, but where are you _really_ from?” because the Sicilian side of my family makes me too swarthy to be “from” here. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/32 "2018-10-30T23:38:22Z")
The ancestors whose name I bear came to New Amsterdam in approximately 1636, so no documentation there. Elsewhere in the family tree there are some more recent immigrants, but nobody who came any later than the early 19th century. I don’t think they had any formalized immigration process then. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/33 "2018-10-31T00:47:17Z")
The original Arkansas land deed for the land I’m living on is in a safe deposit box somewhere so I’m thinking my ancestors predate naturalization papers. ---
**Author:** ![Dobbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Dobbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dobbs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/34 "2018-10-31T00:49:31Z")
I’ve a fairly extensive family tree, and all my ‘treetops’ going back 4 generations were born here. Lines that have been traced further were also all born here as far as I can tell, except those that were here when the country was formed. In short, I’ve not identified anyone who came to the United States, the US formed around them.\* Of course, I don’t think **all** my family lines were here in colonial times, just that I haven’t found any immigrants yet, and several families were here. But everyone from GG Grandparents on down was born here. So I guess none of my ancestors has naturalization documents, because they didn’t exist back then. \*There are family stories of Native American ancestry, both sides, but the only written evidence is on the 1940 census, where my grandfather’s sister claimed 1/16 Cherokee. No other records I’ve found, and a spit test says 0%. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/35 "2018-10-31T02:18:23Z")
In regards to those ancestors of mine alive after 1899 and who remained so after 1917, I got a small numbers of Acts of Congress and amendments thereof decreeing variously that as of a certain date everyone domiciled in the jurisdiction they dwelled in was now a US citizen unless they explicitly declined; or that everyone born in the jurisdiction they were born in, after some specific date, was a citizen even if the prior statute missed them. They didn’t get naturalized, Congress legislated them into citizens. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/36 "2018-10-31T13:36:40Z")
> [@Dobbs](#): > > There are family stories of Native American ancestry, both sides, but the only written evidence is on the 1940 census, where my grandfather’s sister claimed 1/16 Cherokee. No other records I’ve found, and a spit test says 0%. If your grandfather was 1/16 NA, that would make you 1/64 and could well be below the detection level of those commercial DNA tests. Not that such family legends are usually true or anything, but just saying it’s possible it is true and you could still test negative. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/37 "2018-10-31T14:08:18Z")
All lines of my family tree arrived in the USA by (IIRC) the 1870s. If any of them were naturalized, I’m sure it’s hard to know now, especially since naturalization wasn’t centrally administered in the early years of the country. I believe there was a period where immigrants had a (very short) waiting period after which they just went before a local judge to swear the oath. > [@Riemann](#): > > However you view what Trump said, how on earth are you inferring that birth in the U.S. would not _generally_ make you a citizen? If this is supposed to be a _reductio ad absurdum_ of Trump, you will have to explain further. The USA, unlike some countries, has no central registry of citizens. Birth certificates are basically the only way for the native-born to show that they’re citizens, and now the President of the United States is saying (albeit without any reason to take him immensely seriously) that those should be no good if the parents were illegal immigrants. And how would most people disprove that? By showing their parents’ birth certificates (if they still exist). ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/38 "2018-10-31T14:08:49Z")
Hmmm, I’m not sure I could even do that. I know my family has been in the same county since at least 1850, so it would be prior to that. Without referring to genealogies, I would guess we go far enough back on both sides to predate naturalization. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/39 "2018-10-31T16:10:20Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The USA, unlike some countries, has no central registry of citizens. Birth certificates are basically the only way for the native-born to show that they’re citizens, and now the President of the United States is saying (albeit without any reason to take him immensely seriously) that those should be no good if the parents were illegal immigrants. And how would most people disprove that? By showing their parents’ birth certificates (if they still exist). Yeah this is one of the big issues with anything having to do with voter or driver ID and having to show proof of citizenship. That we do not issue a universal citizen ID out of some vision of being “asked for our papers” results in having to come up with a bigger set of papers that each by itself may or may not really prove it (BC + some other form of ID + SSN + evidence of residence + whatever) but about which if they are all legit we presume that someone with such a paper trail must belong here. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723/40 "2018-10-31T17:54:08Z")
I’m not sure what you mean by ignoring birth certificates. The branch of my family that runs through my paternal grandmother goes back before there was anything like naturalization papers or birth certificates. I’m still looking but I haven’t found who the first one here was. I’m back to the late 18th century. The other branches of the family all arrived between 1850 and 1905. I’ve seen various census and other forms but no idea when naturalization papers became a thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignoring-all-birth-certificates-which-is-your-closest-ancestor-who-can-prove-american-citizenship/823723.md?page=3)