# IL Church Shooter had "arsenal" of guns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064 "2009-03-11T12:19:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/101 "2009-03-13T01:04:01Z")
I think some of you are unaware that guns that look like pens. cellphones, etc. are highly restricted in the US, under the same laws that regulate the ownership of shortbarreled shotguns and rifles, grenades, RPGs, etc. This is why there’s no real market for them here. If one is going to jump thru the hoops and pay the tax, why not get something that is actually fun to shoot instead? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/102 "2009-03-13T01:08:02Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > [Pen gun. Mightier than the sword.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3j34i81Fk) 😛 [Not mightier than the sword gun, though!](http://www.cs.utah.edu/%7Ehal/pics/prague_137.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/103 "2009-03-13T01:26:02Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > No career criminal is truly fearful of jail because he knows the system and how it works and how to beat it. Well, that and criminals don’t think they’ll get caught. Partially because they tend to be stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/104 "2009-03-13T08:05:22Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > They don’t. The idea that the technology exists is scary enough for some people. People are scared of a lot of things. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/105 "2009-03-13T16:30:56Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Oh well, what can you say? This thread will be no different than innumerable other SDMB gun threads. No one convinces anyone else, no one changes their opinions, no one is going to do anything other than argue. Seeing the same names arguing the same points for 5, 6, or even 9 years (myself included) makes me despair. So true. The players never change and the posts are usually interchangeable. I suspect we could grab random posts out of assorted gun threads and no one could tell the difference. Dio, “the media” glamorizing their twisted perception of guns and their owners doesn’t make them pro-gun. But there’s no way anyone will change their opinion at this point, so I’m not even going to bother supporting that statement ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/106 "2009-03-13T18:24:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Well I did say it was “certainly possible.” I’ve still never seen one IRL. Regardless of how it looks, it’s still a firearm and its use and handling is still covered by Federal, State, County, City, and other laws. > > Oh well, what can you say? This thread will be no different than innumerable other SDMB gun threads. No one convinces anyone else, no one changes their opinions, no one is going to do anything other than argue. Seeing the same names arguing the same points for 5, 6, or even 9 years (myself included) makes me despair. > > I changed my opinions on gun control over time, but it was as a result of external factors, and nothing anyone said on here changed my mind. Oh, Una, don’t despair! I don’t remember who it was, so I can’t provide a cite, but I distinctly remember that at least two posters have said that discussions on this board helped change their minds about guns. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/107 "2009-03-13T18:33:04Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > Oh, Una, don’t despair! I don’t remember who it was, so I can’t provide a cite, but I distinctly remember that at least two posters have said that discussions on this board helped change their minds about guns. I’ve changed my mind about the subject some, too. It’s not just the board but that was one reason. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/108 "2009-03-13T20:05:10Z")
I do agree agree that the media can sometimes be very gun-phobic (three guns and a box of ammo is an “arsenal”? Puh-leeze). However, I also agree that guns are waay too easy to get in our society. Personal experience: When my wife and I were living in Eugene, OR, a guy downstairs from us moved in (we found out later he was being “mainstreamed” from a mental-health hospice), and started acting very erratically - stomping and slamming doors all hours of the night, sobbing and screaming, pounding the walls, all kinds of shit. So after trying unsuccessfully to talk with him to see if I could help, I talk with the property managers, and they say they’ll take care of it (not telling us until much later that he was a mental case). Long story short, before it was said and done, we had several run-ins with him - he accused me of making racist comments (he was black), he accused my wife of trying to poison him with Christmas baked goods:O, all kinds of crazy shit. We finally called the cops after he scared the crap out of my wife one day while I was at work. The officer who responded was familiar with him, and when I asked about it, was told that he may have access to weapons since he had a years-old expired CC permit (this was told to us in confidence, since CC permits aren’t supposed to be public record in OR without a court order :rolleyes:), but since he hadn’t been convicted of a felony, or directly assaulted us, they couldn’t search his apartment for any weapons. That right there changed the game for me - it went immediately from “oh, I could take this old guy if it came to it” to “oh shit oh shit oh shit, this crazy man will kill us”. I was afraid to go to work for fear of something happening to my wife; I was afraid every time I heard a bump downstairs that he would just start shooting into his ceiling. He wound up getting carted off to jail after cornering me in a laundry room and directly threatening to kill me. He scuffled with the cops when they showed up, and that was all she wrote. And they found a handgun (but no ammo) in his apartment when they cleared it out (I only found out because the first officer I’d spoken with followed up out of courtesy). Based on this experience (and the regular reportage of nutjobs going on rampages), I firmly believe that handgun and non-bolt action rifle purchases should be monitored and thorough background checks should be performed. As long as the NRA opposes this, I will oppose them. This has been a disturbing plank in the NRA platform, as it belies the wild-eyed belief that liberals (and by extension, I) want to take their guns away, or (as I read on one gun forum years ago) round up gun owners and put them in reeducation camps. :rolleyes: No, I just want to keep the big metals things that put holes in people out of the hands of the mentally unstable. While guns are tools, they are tools designed to **kill people** - especially handguns, and the carbine/military-type weaponry that tend to be used in mass shootings, and purely coincidentally, tend to be favored by those types (at least the ones I know) who feel that armed revolution/total breakdown of society/terrorist invasion is a likelihood. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/109 "2009-03-13T21:04:10Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > [Pen gun. Mightier than the sword.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3j34i81Fk) 😛 No one expects a **Stealth Potato** with a pen-gun. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/110 "2009-03-13T21:25:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Not mightier than the sword gun, though!](http://www.cs.utah.edu/%7Ehal/pics/prague_137.jpg) [Crocodile Dundee]Now **that’s** a knife. And, also, a gun.[/CD] ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/111 "2009-03-13T21:52:04Z")
> [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](#): > > The officer who responded was familiar with him, and when I asked about it, was told that he may have access to weapons since he had a years-old expired CC permit (this was told to us in confidence, since CC permits aren’t supposed to be public record in OR without a court order :rolleyes:), but since he hadn’t been convicted of a felony, or directly assaulted us, they couldn’t search his apartment for any weapons. It’s not just a felony conviction that is disabling in terms of firearms rights: mental health problems as adjudicated by a court of law will do it too. The fact that the guy had an expired concealed carry license is irrelevant – having the license doesn’t make it legal for you to own a firearm if there’s some factor prohibiting you therefrom. And, at least if the various enforcement agencies are doing their jobs, that’s precisely the sort of thing that’s supposed to come up in the background checks required for every purchase from a licensed gun dealer. That’s not to say that the agencies _are_ doing their jobs, unfortunately; it was just such a lapse that enabled Seung-Hui Cho to purchase the firearms he used in the Virginia Tech massacre. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/112 "2009-03-14T02:45:52Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > It’s not just a felony conviction that is disabling in terms of firearms rights: mental health problems as adjudicated by a court of law will do it too. The fact that the guy had an expired concealed carry license is irrelevant – having the license doesn’t make it legal for you to own a firearm if there’s some factor prohibiting you therefrom. And, at least if the various enforcement agencies are doing their jobs, that’s precisely the sort of thing that’s supposed to come up in the background checks required for every purchase from a licensed gun dealer. > > That’s not to say that the agencies _are_ doing their jobs, unfortunately; it was just such a lapse that enabled Seung-Hui Cho to purchase the firearms he used in the Virginia Tech massacre. The thing is, here in beautiful Oregon, one doesn’t need a permit or a license to own a handgun. Only for CC. Sure, Oregonians are subject to federally mandated background checks - **if** one buys a gun at a dealer, and not a gun show (of which there are many in OR) or from a private owner. Not to mention the fact that the ATF rarely enforces the mandatory background check, and it seems pawnshops are somehow able to get around the issue due to loopholes in the “private owner” clause. Thanks, NRA! In my case the expired CC license was an indicator he **might** have been armed, since he let it lapse, but he obviously kept his gun, or perhaps bought a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/113 "2009-03-14T19:35:20Z")
I’m confused. Can you really go into a pawnshop in Oregon and buy without a background check? That’s very unusual. I frequently laugh at people (especially around this place) who are so vehemently anti NRA. The wild eyed gun nuts view the NRA as a bunch of libtards working to take away our gun rights just to keep their own power in Washington. Keep bashing them from both sides and pretty soon a real pro-2nd group will get a little power and start doing the things people accuse the NRA of doing. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/114 "2009-03-14T19:36:25Z")
I just wanted to say Thanks to all the rabidly stupid anti-gun types this place draw like flies to shit. Because of their contributions to this thread, and this Board, I was moved to go out today and pick up a [Springfield Armory M1A.](http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=42) As I’m typing this, I’m rubbing peanut butter on my nipples and masturbating, as I gaze lovingly at it. Tonight, I’m driving downtown and trading it for a vial of crack to a drug dealer. In the meantime, I’m leaving it loaded and lying around a children’s playground. Seriously: I’m shopping around for some furniture. But I did buy the rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/115 "2009-03-14T21:38:26Z")
Do you give yourself a mohawk yet? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/116 "2009-03-14T21:40:26Z")
You sure showed somebody, **ExTank**. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/117 "2009-03-14T21:42:02Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > The fact that the guy had an expired concealed carry license is irrelevant – having the license doesn’t make it legal for you to own a firearm if there’s some factor prohibiting you therefrom. And conversely, NOT having a carry permit doesn’t mean you can’t have a gun on your private property. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/118 "2009-03-14T22:01:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you give yourself a mohawk yet? You talkin’ to _me?_ ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/119 "2009-03-14T23:33:53Z")
> [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](#): > > The thing is, here in beautiful Oregon, one doesn’t need a permit or a license to own a handgun. Only for CC. Sure, Oregonians are subject to federally mandated background checks - **if** one buys a gun at a dealer, and not a gun show (of which there are many in OR) or from a private owner. Sorry but that is just bullshit. Federal laws do not mystically “not apply” becasue one buys a gun at a “gun show”. If it was a dealer sale, it required a check. If it wasn’t, it didn’t. It mattered not where it took place. Thanks for adding to the sensation that spawned the OP in the first place. > [@](#): > > Not to mention the fact that the ATF rarely enforces the mandatory background check, and it seems pawnshops are somehow able to get around the issue due to loopholes in the “private owner” clause. Thanks, NRA! Again, bullshit. The ATF takes FFL violations quite seriously. If you are convinced that dealers are not making the required checks, call the ATF. They will be up that dealer’s ass by the end of the day. If not, quit with the bullshit. Regarding pawnshops, if they are FFL dealers, they have no exceptions to existing laws. If they are not licensed dealers, they are not subject to FFL rules and regs. You can thank the NRA all you want. [The NRA supported the recent changes to Federal law requiring mental health to be part of the background check.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/09/AR2007060901080.html) Of course I’d hate to ruin your argument. Just keep blaming those kooks instead of facing reality. It’s much easier that way. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064/120 "2009-03-14T23:54:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Guns are not evil. Guns are not sinister. Guns are not sentient shape-shifted aliens just waiting for an excuse to shoot their owner or his family in the back. Perhaps the ultimate example of Hollywood’s depiction of this trope was an episode from the second series of “The Outer Limits”. Entitled “The Gun” and featuring John de Lancie and Stacy Keach, it featured an evil gun that cybernetically grafted itself to it’s user’s arm: [http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season6/images/thegun\_01.jpg](http://www.theouterlimits.com/episodes/season6/images/thegun_01.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/il-church-shooter-had-arsenal-of-guns/489064.md?page=7)