# "I'll back Texas independence, EU's Juncker warns Trump." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384 "2017-03-30T22:15:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/41 "2017-03-31T20:31:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Can you show me where fiscal and tax policy were dictated to Ireland by the EU? Again, afaik the EU can’t MAKE fiscal or tax policy…that’s up to individual nations, such as Ireland. Granted, there are some constraints in there…members have to abide by mutually accepted EU policy…but they can’t and don’t dictate these things to the member states. Or, perhaps I’m wrong. Feel free to show me. > . As far as differentiating between the U.S. and EU, that’s not a very effective argument. How much control do the Feds have over State budgets? The EU raises funds from it’s member nations. Despite its different nature, it is collecting taxes to fund government function. You can’t possibly have thought it was running solely on voluntary donations. > **[Budget of the European Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union)** > > The budget of the European Union is used to finance EU funding programmes (such as the European Regional Development Fund, the Cohesion Fund, Horizon Europe, or Erasmus+) and other expenditure at the European level. > [@](#): > > The EU obtains its revenue from four main sources: > > 1. Traditional own resources, comprising customs duties on imports from outside the EU and sugar levies; > 2. VAT-based resources, comprising a percentage (around 0.3%) of each member state’s standardised value added tax (VAT) rate; > 3. GNI-based resources, comprising a percentage (around 0.7%) of each member state’s gross national income (GNI); and > 4. other resources, including deductions from EU staff salaries, bank interest, fines and contributions from non-EU countries.[19][20] ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/42 "2017-03-31T20:40:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As far as differentiating between the U.S. and EU, that’s not a very effective argument. How much control do the Feds have over State budgets? The EU raises funds from it’s member nations. Despite its different nature, it is collecting taxes to fund government function. You can’t possibly have thought it was running solely on voluntary donations. > [Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union) I think we are talking past each other, here. The fact that the EU gets taxes to run the things you list isn’t the same thing as setting fiscal or tax POLICY for all member states. Just think about it from your cite…the EU, an entity that is larger than the US has a budget of €143 billion. The US has a budget of over $2 TRILLION. The US federal government sets fiscal and tax policy for the entire US. Sure, states have their own taxes (and so do local towns, cities, counties and the like), but those are for local needs and services. They are two totally different things. Again, I’m not disputing that the EU had some government functions. Hell, they have an elected parliament and even a President, IIRC. My dispute is that while members have voluntarily given up SOME very specific sovereign rights, the EU as a whole doesn’t not have sovereign control of the member nations. The EU does not have a federal executive aspect…it’s one of the key things they lack to be a more integrated entity. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/43 "2017-03-31T20:55:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Which specific parts of the UK are ‘EU territory’, IYHO? Maybe that’s the place to start on our mutual disconnect. If you have cites showing exactly what parts of the UK are controlled by the EU as sovereign territory that would be helpful. AFAIK, none of it is, but hell, I’m not claiming to be any sort of expert on the EU so I’m willing to learn. If you are unwilling to concede that the EU and its member states - jointly - exercise exclusive sovereignty within a defined territorial area, then I don’t know how we can reasonably discuss this. The precise ratio of apportionment of sovereignty within the territorty of a specific member state between the EU and that member state is not significant in my estimation. It is also worth noting that, through the retention of [overseas territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union), the terrtitory of the EU is not simply co-terminous with that of all national territory held by the member states. > [@](#): > > Can you show me where fiscal and tax policy were dictated to Ireland by the EU? Again, afaik the EU can’t MAKE fiscal or tax policy…that’s up to individual nations, such as Ireland. Granted, there are some constraints in there…members have to abide by mutually accepted EU policy…but they can’t and don’t dictate these things to the member states. Or, perhaps I’m wrong. Feel free to show me. This subject is far too complex for me to offer a pithy, substantive citation to clearly refute your assertion, but the [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-2008_Irish_economic_downturn) article on the Irish economic crisis and recovery is a good place to get an overview of the situation. > [@](#): > > Well, it should be of importance to both you and Mr. Juncker as it’s a distinction that makes a difference. Encouraging a member nation to leave a union that they voluntarily joined and have a mutually accepted mechanism to leave is different than encouraging a part of a sovereign nation to leave when there is no such mechanism. I think this is your best point, and I can’t simply hand-wave it away. I can only I say that I disagree that this is a significant point about Mr. Juncker’s objection. I still don’t want Trump telling us commie Euro-types how to #MakeEuopeGreatAgain, especially if he tries breaking us up. > [@](#): > > Again, AFAIK, the EU is not going towards this…I seriously doubt that any of the member nations would be willing to give up their sovereignty and accept a truly federal EU that can set tax and fiscal policy, assumes control of the various nations military arms for the common good, has a true federal police system, etc etc. The US, on the other hand, had pretty much done this wrt the states long before 1865, which was the original point I was responding too. Yes, this is a long way - if ever - off. That said, US politicians should still stay the fuck out of it. > [@](#): > > Let’s just cut to the chase. Cite? How are they not? In what way do you think they are not? Let’s just leave aside the apples to orangutans comparison to US states and focus on this. The UK, in your mind, is not a sovereign nation. Why? What do you base that on? Well, whose laws is it that the UK is now going to have to furiously [rewrite](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39439554)? ---
**Author:** ![SigMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/44 "2017-03-31T21:33:52Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > If there’s anyone in Texas who gives a damn what Juncker thinks, he’s mighty hard to find. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/45 "2017-03-31T22:33:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think we are talking past each other, here. The fact that the EU gets taxes to run the things you list isn’t the same thing as setting fiscal or tax POLICY for all member states. I guess we are. I suppose because I think of the EU almost like early Switzerland. And while you’re right it’s mostly a trade bloc, when “free trade” includes absolute movement of workers throughout? That’s pretty qualitative difference and a rather significant surrender of sovereignty to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384/46 "2017-04-05T04:27:02Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > EU members are NOT fully sovereign nations, and never can be as long as they are EU members. > [@XT](#): > > Let’s just cut to the chase. Cite? How are they not? In what way do you think they are not? Let’s just leave aside the apples to orangutans comparison to US states and focus on this. The UK, in your mind, is not a sovereign nation. Why? What do you base that on? > [@Fuji](#): > > Well, whose laws is it that the UK is now going to have to furiously [rewrite](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39439554)? Except the EU laws do not apply to the UK of their own force, at least not according to the UK courts and Parliament. The EU laws apply to the UK because the UK, as a sovereign nation, decided to enact a statute that would give the EU laws force in the UK: [European Communities Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_(UK)). The UK, as a sovereign nation, could repeal that law tomorrow. The “rewrite” that you refer to is that the UK will have to decide which principles of EU law it wishes to keep and to enact directly, rather than rely on the incorporation by reference in the European Communities Act. In short, the UK is a fully sovereign nation because it has ultimate control over the laws in force in the UK. The EU is not sovereign because it has no direct legislative power over its member states. The EU laws only have force because each member state has agreed to give them force in that member state’s legal system. That’s completely different from the situation of states and provinces in federations like Canada and the United States. Federal laws apply of their own force throughout the federation. They do not depend in any way on the actions of the provinces/states to make the federal laws effective, and the states/provinces cannot prevent the federal laws from applying. (See the Nullification Debate in the United States.) The federal governments have sovereign powers, unlike the EU. Because the states and provinces cannot affect federal law, the comparison of the UK to states/provinces simply does not work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-back-texas-independence-eus-juncker-warns-trump/783384.md?page=2)