# I'll give it a shot in here...2nd amendments rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401 "2020-01-14T13:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/141 "2020-01-21T05:27:56Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > They’re not necessarily useless, though. > > [How Gun Policies Affect Violent Crime | RAND](https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/violent-crime.html) I never said they were useless (if they make people feel safer, they arent useless). **begbert2** implied it. See **cheesesteak** and \*\*LAZombie \*\*made the mistake of cherrypicking a few areas with lower crime and tough gun laws vs others with high crime rates and loose gun laws. I then pointed out other areas that didnt fit that model, thus _“So there appears to be zero correlation between restrictive gun laws and violent crime rates.”_ begbert2 then made the classic excuse that guns can come in from other areas- which of course just means state & local gun control laws are useless. It proves exactly the opposite of what he wanted to show. And here is what your cite sez: _MAY INCREASE VIOLENT CRIME Concealed-Carry Laws Stand-Your-Ground Laws_ \*Effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on Violent Crime March 2, 2018 Summary: Evidence that shall-issue concealed-carry laws may increase violent crime is limited. Evidence for the effect of shall-issue laws on total homicides, firearm homicides, robberies, assaults, and rapes is inconclusive.\* \*Effects of Stand-Your-Ground Laws on Violent Crime March 2, 2018 Summary: Evidence that stand-your-ground laws may increase homicide rates is moderate, and evidence that such laws may increase firearm homicides is limited. Evidence for the effect of stand-your ground laws on other types of violent crime is inconclusive.\* and then: _INCONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE Bans on the Sale of Assault Weapons and High-Capacity Magazines Child-Access Prevention Laws Licensing and Permitting Requirements Minimum Age Requirements Surrender of Firearms by Prohibited Possessors Waiting Periods_ So, according to your cite (and I have respect for RAND) there is **INCONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE** that\* any gun control laws actually effect violent crime.\* I said "_No significant effect"_, But- OK, I will buy “INCONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE” instead if you must. Now, I am not a fan of how some stand your ground SYG laws are written (altho\* in theory\*, I like the idea)so I can see RANDs point that (imho badly written) “SYG” laws may backfire. That’s actually a damn good cite. Thanks- I may use it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/142 "2020-01-21T12:02:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > See **cheesesteak** and \*\*LAZombie \*\*made the mistake of cherrypicking a few areas with lower crime and tough gun laws vs others with high crime rates and loose gun laws. I then pointed out other areas that didnt fit that model, thus _“So there appears to be zero correlation between restrictive gun laws and violent crime rates.”_ begbert2 then made the classic excuse that guns can come in from other areas- which of course just means state & local gun control laws are useless. It isn’t a “classic excuse” when restrictive state & local laws can be thwarted with impunity by driving an hour, it’s simply reality. It is also reality that competent countries with national firearm regulations appear to effectively control the murder rate, resulting in a rate of murder topping out at about 1/3rd of ours, with many countries far less than that. I believe we should aspire to have America be a safe and peaceful place to live, rather than be satisfied because our murder rate is slightly better than Ecuador’s. By the way, before you get a cramp patting yourself on the back, let’s review: > [@ME in post #89](#): > > Which, by the way, isn’t an argument in favor of the local city or state gun regulations. They don’t appear to work particularly well, there is no evidence that they work well, there’s no reason to believe they would be effective. > [@YOU in post #90](#): > > Detroit, with a state rating of C from Gifford has the 2nd highest violent crime rate. > > Baltimore with a rating of A has the 3rd highest violent crime rate. > > Stockton, rating A+ (Ca has the most restrictive gun laws) is 8th. Oakland is 11th and San Bernardino 12th. > > So there appears to be zero correlation between restrictive gun laws and violent crime rates. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/143 "2020-01-21T14:51:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Total gun confiscation is impractical and unconstitutional and you know it; the only people who have proposed total gun confiscation are in fact the people who have an extremely liberal view of gun rights. Do you mean liberal as in what the progressive Left is in favor of; or liberal in the sense of permissive, against restriction? Because where guns are concerned the two definitions are in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/144 "2020-01-21T15:03:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It is also reality that competent countries with national firearm regulations appear to effectively control the murder rate, resulting in a rate of murder topping out at about 1/3rd of ours, with many countries far less than that. I believe we should aspire to have America be a safe and peaceful place to live, rather than be satisfied because our murder rate is slightly better than Ecuador’s. Do any of those low-murder rate countries have an entrenched underclass comparable to the USA’s African-Americans? Because if not you’re congratulating gun control for an effect that’s the result of having an ethnically and socially homogeneous population. It’s an uncomfortable but undeniable fact that if you could count only non-African Americans, America’s violence ranking in the world would drop precipitously. If America has violence statistics more in line with a third-world country, it’s because we have social conditions more in line with a third-world country. Some of which like Mexico have stringent gun control laws that accomplish bupkis. Gun advocates resent guns being made the scapegoat for America’s failed social policies. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/145 "2020-01-21T16:05:31Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Do any of those low-murder rate countries have an entrenched underclass comparable to the USA’s African-Americans? Because if not you’re congratulating gun control for an effect that’s the result of having an ethnically and socially homogeneous population. It’s an uncomfortable but undeniable fact that if you could count only non-African Americans, America’s violence ranking in the world would drop precipitously. If America has violence statistics more in line with a third-world country, it’s because we have social conditions more in line with a third-world country. Some of which like Mexico have stringent gun control laws that accomplish bupkis. > > Gun advocates resent guns being made the scapegoat for America’s failed social policies. I agree with this point however we have had this underclass throughout our history and never had these mass shootings. Of course, we also had pretty much unregulated gun ownership throughout our history and never had these mass shooting. You are correct in that the 1920s you could order fully automatic rifles out of the Sears catalog and that gun ownership laws were pretty non-existent up until the Brady Law was passed. I mean, they were there in practice, but all you had to do was lie on the form and you could buy a gun. Your point is well taken. These arms and more have been available since they were invented yet only recently have we seen these mass shootings. It must not be the guns that are the cause of them. Perhaps if we solve the underlying problem we help the people and stop the killings. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/146 "2020-01-21T16:16:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Do any of those low-murder rate countries have an entrenched underclass comparable to the USA’s African-Americans? Because if not you’re congratulating gun control for an effect that’s the result of having an ethnically and socially homogeneous population. It’s an uncomfortable but undeniable fact that if you could count only non-African Americans, America’s violence ranking in the world would drop precipitously. If America has violence statistics more in line with a third-world country, it’s because we have social conditions more in line with a third-world country. Some of which like Mexico have stringent gun control laws that accomplish bupkis. > > Gun advocates resent guns being made the scapegoat for America’s failed social policies. What a bizarre argument. 43% of violent crimes in 2018 were commited by African-Americans, 46% by white people. So doesn’t the same argument work if you say if you ignore all violent crime by white people? [https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/explorer/national/united-states/crime](https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/explorer/national/united-states/crime) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/147 "2020-01-21T16:32:03Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > All of those things are completely over-sensationalized and optional. Children are in far more danger traveling to school than being shot. They are also in more danger of suffocation or poisoning. But the thing is, children are now in LESS danger nfrom traffic accidents, suffocation and poisoning than they used to be because efforts have been made to mitigate those dangers. Accidents involving cars have long been the #1 misadventure cause of death for kids (and adults) but that didn’t stop people from also taking steps to reduce accidental poisonings. > [@](#): > > The approach of gun grabbers is to disarm us and trust the police, who are always X minutes away and may shoot you if your skin is the wrong color or they distrust something about you. But this just isn’t true. The argument for gun control is not “trust the police.” It’s that more guns is correlated with more deaths and woundings. Guns result in more people dying from homicide and suicide; that is epidemiological fact. (Suicidies are oft-forgotten in these discussions, but they count, too. And yes, they would go down if there were fewer guns.) WHY that happens, and why reducing the number of guns makes those numbers go down, is quite a complicated thing, and making the number of guns go down is itself not simple or easy. But it is just plainly true, and that is the central point of gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/148 "2020-01-21T17:31:06Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > What a bizarre argument. 43% of violent crimes in 2018 were commited by African-Americans, 46% by white people. So doesn’t the same argument work if you say if you ignore all violent crime by white people? > > [https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/explorer/national/united-states/crime](https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/explorer/national/united-states/crime) What % of the total population does that break out to be??? Hmmm ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/149 "2020-01-21T17:37:53Z")
Here you go. > **[U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: United States](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045222)** > > Frequently requested statistics for: United States 13% of the total population accounts for 43% of all violent crime …. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/150 "2020-01-21T18:28:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I never said they were useless (if they make people feel safer, they arent useless). **begbert2** implied it. My _ass_ I implied it. I refuted your terrible argument that gun regulations don’t work everywhere with facts, and you made an even more terrible argument from there lunging to the conclusion that gun regulations don’t work at _all_. Don’t try to push your terrible arguments on me. They’re all yours. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/151 "2020-01-22T00:49:40Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Do any of those low-murder rate countries have an entrenched underclass comparable to the USA’s African-Americans? :dubious: This is a **super** -sloppy (not to mention super-sketchy) way of putting it. It is not true that African-Americans in general constitute an “underclass”, as nearly half of African-Americans are socioeconomically middle-class or above, and a much smaller percentage of African-Americans have incomes below the poverty line. What I think you’re clumsily trying to say is that the USA’s entrenched underclass is disproportionately African-American, not that African-Americans as a group constitute an entrenched underclass. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Because if not you’re congratulating gun control for an effect that’s the result of having an ethnically and socially homogeneous population. That likewise seems to be a gross misstatement. An “ethnically and socially homogeneous population” doesn’t necessarily correlate with low violence levels. Consider Lithuania, for example, which has a murder rate comparable to that of the US but is over 83% ethnically Lithuanian, with the largest minority groups Poles and Russians. Ukraine is also very homogeneous, almost entirely white and over 77% Ukrainian, but has a murder rate more than twice that of the US. > [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s an uncomfortable but undeniable fact that if you could count only non-African Americans, America’s violence ranking in the world would drop precipitously. Not that precipitously, actually. If you consider [murder statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate), for example, the US has about 5.3 murders per 100,000 people annually, on par with countries like Niger, Sudan, Zambia, and Cuba. If you disregarded approximately half those murders in an attempt to “count only non-African Americans”, the US murder rate would be about 2.7, on par with countries like Egypt, Libya, Iran, and Azerbaijan. Most other highly developed countries, on the other hand, have murder rates under 1.5 (e.g., the UK, France, Germany, Sweden) and in many cases under 1 (e.g., Ireland, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Norway). So no, not buying the “it’s all the blacks’ fault” line of argument here. It’s just a red herring to distract attention from the significant impact of gun proliferation. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401/152 "2020-01-22T02:11:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :So no, not buying the “it’s all the blacks’ fault” line of argument here. It’s just a red herring to distract attention from the significant impact of gun proliferation. What proliferation? Again, gun violence in the USA has not tracked the number or availability of firearms, as one would expect from a naive epidemiological model of guns as vectors of injury and death. ETA: in fact oddly enough, gun _homicides_ and gun _suicides_ geographically track completely differently! [Geographic Evidence that Gun Deaths are Cultural - Handwaving Freakoutery - Medium](https://medium.com/handwaving-freakoutery/geographic-evidence-that-gun-deaths-are-cultural-277cb90fa06d) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-give-it-a-shot-in-here-2nd-amendments-rights/846401.md?page=7)