# I'll go to hell if I want to go to hell! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 11, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553 "2017-02-11T16:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/41 "2017-02-13T01:36:31Z")
I see that this has broadened into the sophisticated theology thread. How about this cracker: 1. I have an idea of supremely perfect being, i.e. a being having all perfections. 2. Necessary existence is a perfection. 3. Therefore, a supremely perfect being exists. Also, has anyone noticed that a banana is _exactly the right shape to fit in your hand_? ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/42 "2017-02-13T01:56:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, okay, seriously. Engage with me here. > > What good is my free will if it is punished by eternity in hell? If Adam had not had free will, he would have walked with God in the garden forever. How is that a bad thing? > > If I were a happy robot…what, exactly, is wrong with that? > > You say, “Wow,” but I don’t hear anything meaningful in it. > > (Captain Kirk was a colossal jerk, ripping people out of their comfortable paradises!) IMO it’s because God doesn’t want mindless robots with no choice to follow Him. He wants people that chose to love and come to Him. Freewill is the filter He gave to make that possible. You don’t want to follow HIm is a valid choice, albeit one that will erase you from the book of life. When the final judgement comes you will just cease for the options are life eternally with God or a 2nd death, one that is permanent. The lake of fire and brimstone is reserved for Satan and the false prophet and a few other select. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/43 "2017-02-13T02:42:20Z")
People are, on balance, rational. They make rational choices. They love and protect their children. Now, I know there are exceptions. Mental illness and drug abuse and so forth. But, we’re talking about the vast majority out there. They don’t walk around poking themselves with forks - because poking yourself with a fork is irrational. However, being religious means deliberately being irrational - on purpose - for a period of time. You agree to simply not use your brain. Want to impose arbitrary dietary restrictions? Want to cut off a portion of my penis? Want to take my money? Want to send my children off on “missions” for the church? Want to ruin the lives of homosexuals? Want to repress women? Sure! So … why would people do that? Why would they choose - of their own free will - to participate in such madness? Well, one reason is the threat of hell. Do what we say or there will be consequences. Start there, apply just a little self-rationalization and a life time of indoctrination… and, you’ll be on a street corner begging people to convert in no time flat. One other quick note - It is often difficult for atheists to accept that True Believers actually believe the things that they say that they believe. And, the reason is that it’s all so completely irrational. But, the weird truth is that, the vast majority of the time, the True Believers really do, in fact, believe the things that they say that they believe. They really do. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/44 "2017-02-13T02:50:45Z")
I’m afraid an awful lot of people only suspend disbelief, but do not truly believe. The ones who preach, “Thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in vain” – and then go right on cussing. The ones who steal, who lie, who hit people – while claiming to be faithful. The guy who said to me, “I’ll turn the other cheek…and then I’m going to deck the son of a bitch.” Belief? No: just a shallow kind of unexamined doctrinism. If they really believed, they’d behave that way. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/45 "2017-02-13T19:38:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Well, the good news would be that his coffee will never get cold. Hell **is** cold, burned coffee and warm, flat soda. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/46 "2017-02-13T20:05:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Lemur866** : > > What if the seat belt is made of rusty razor blades and barbed wire? Like, what if I choose to follow the wrong god, and every time I sacrifice a chicken to my fake god, I’m just making the real god madder and madder? I don’t see the relevance of this analogy. Suppose that the seat belt _is_ made of barbed wire, but that the person you’re driving with somehow doesn’t realize this. Suppose that they genuinely think that seat belts really do make people much safer. Wouldn’t you still expect such a person to urge you to buckle up? Yes, they’d be factually wrong, but the point is, they don’t know that, and so their urging is still perfectly logical (given the premises) and compassionate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/47 "2017-02-13T20:10:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t see the relevance of this analogy. Suppose that the seat belt _is_ made of barbed wire, but that the person you’re driving with somehow doesn’t realize this. Suppose that they genuinely think that seat belts really do make people much safer. Wouldn’t you still expect such a person to urge you to buckle up? Yes, they’d be factually wrong, but the point is, they don’t know that, and so their urging is still perfectly logical (given the premises) and compassionate. The problem is that, even after you tell them this they still don’t _know_ it, because these seat belts that you are pushing are just like all the other ones, and _none_ of them come with any more evidence that they do what they claim to do than any other. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/48 "2017-02-13T20:53:21Z")
> [@PoppaSan](#): > > IMO it’s because God doesn’t want mindless robots with no choice to follow Him. He wants people that chose to love and come to Him. Freewill is the filter He gave to make that possible. You don’t want to follow HIm is a valid choice, albeit one that will erase you from the book of life. When the final judgement comes you will just cease for the options are life eternally with God or a 2nd death, one that is permanent. The lake of fire and brimstone is reserved for Satan and the false prophet and a few other select. You’ve expressed one of the reasons why this gets debated. Yours is one minority interpretation of a particular Christian branch. It differs on many important points from many other minority sects, and the majority sect (i.e. it doesn’t appear to be the Catholic doctrine). Now given that, what is the true roulette square that a hell-fearing individual should put their pile of chips in? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/49 "2017-02-13T20:57:09Z")
> [@PoppaSan](#): > > IMO it’s because God doesn’t want mindless robots with no choice to follow Him. He wants people that chose to love and come to Him. Freewill is the filter He gave to make that possible. You don’t want to follow HIm is a valid choice, albeit one that will erase you from the book of life. When the final judgement comes you will just cease for the options are life eternally with God or a 2nd death, one that is permanent. The lake of fire and brimstone is reserved for Satan and the false prophet and a few other select. Which god would this be? There are so many to choose from, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/50 "2017-02-13T21:52:59Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > One other quick note - It is often difficult for atheists to accept that True Believers actually believe the things that they say that they believe. And, the reason is that it’s all so completely irrational. But, the weird truth is that, the vast majority of the time, the True Believers really do, in fact, believe the things that they say that they believe. They really do. Take the example of the Baptist Minister who is preaching against homosexuality from the pulpit on Sunday morning, but is socking cock in a hotel room on Saturday night. Does that guy really believe in God? How could he? Thing is, he went to a lot of trouble to conceal the illicit cocksucking from his parishioners and family. Because if they found out he was sucking cock, he would have suffered some severe penalties. Now, does he not realize that God can see what he’s doing as he slobs another guy’s knob? Is he fooling God? Of course not. So he doesn’t suck cock in front of his wife, because he doesn’t want his wife to know, but he’s fine with sucking cock in front of God, because it doesn’t matter if God knows. It’s one thing to steal money from the company till when your boss isn’t watching, it’s another thing to steal when your boss is watching. If your boss is watching, you don’t steal, because you don’t want to get caught. When is God not watching? This is an extreme example, but there are plenty of Christians who claim all day every day to believe in God, yet constantly do things that would anger the God they claim to believe in. And they go to quite a bit of trouble to keep other humans from finding out their transgressions but they don’t do anything to fool God. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/51 "2017-02-13T22:16:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m afraid an awful lot of people only suspend disbelief, but do not truly believe. > > The ones who preach, “Thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in vain” – and then go right on cussing. > > The ones who steal, who lie, who hit people – while claiming to be faithful. > > The guy who said to me, “I’ll turn the other cheek…and then I’m going to deck the son of a bitch.” > > Belief? No: just a shallow kind of unexamined doctrinism. If they really believed, they’d behave that way. In a word… bull. There are millions of people who believe smoking causes cancer, but who still smoke, are there not? Even those of us who sincerely believe something is evil and/or dangerous can still find temptatioin very hard to resist. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/52 "2017-02-13T22:42:01Z")
Another explanation not given yet (I think): Some people are incredibly uncomfortable with people who believe something different from themselves. It really gets to them. So if someone like this thinks the main reason they “believe” is to avoid hell and they see someone else who doesn’t care about any of that they get really shaken by it. To ward off doubting their own belief they double down and work to change the other person’s belief. Too many 100% true believers aren’t actually all that secure in their beliefs and go to great lengths to be in denial about it. Even if it means burning people at the stake. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/53 "2017-02-13T23:27:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You may laugh, but it’s love. If I believed in hell, I’d want to do anything I could to save people from it. Even people I hate, because hell is worse than anything they could conceivably deserve. > > Also some pragmatism, if one believes that people of faith are better-behaved than sinners. Lower crime rates, less social stress, etc. > > (I don’t believe either of these, but if I did, I’d want to go out and convert people, for their sake and for society’s sake.) This is the correct answer. I know it’s required here to bash religious people and questions their motives and integrity, but there are a lot of people on the globe who truly believe in what their religion teaches, and honestly believe if you don’t find their version of God, you will go to hell. If you truly believe this, as many do, it becomes your mission to save these people. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if there were 5,00 different brands of seatbelt, and no evidence that any of them have ever saved a life? Nobody needs to get into the eleventy billionth iteration of what’s wrong with religion, but there are people, despite what you think about it, who think their God/seatbelt is the one and only. Given this belief, their actions are totally explainable. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/54 "2017-02-13T23:27:54Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > Why do members of certain religions want to save my soul? What’s in it for them? Are you looking for a serious answer? Your thread title would suggest otherwise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/55 "2017-02-14T00:25:23Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Hell **is** cold, burned coffee and warm, flat soda. I’m fine with warm, flat soda. Eminently drinkable. The coffee, now, there you have me. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/56 "2017-02-14T00:56:31Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Lets say you were a former drug addict. Not just a run of the mill addict but one who’s life was being destroyed by your drug use. Then you someone showed you the way to overcome your addiction which you managed to do. > > Then your brother started going down the path to addiction. You know how to help him but he doesn’t want your help. You see it start to destroy his life. Should you sit by and do nothing knowing it is unlikely they will ever recover on their own? Or should you try to help them? Could you even consider yourself a good person if you didn’t try and help them? This is one of the more heart-breaking aspects of addiction: the addict cannot be helped until and unless they **want it** for themselves. Pushing religion on an addict who doesn’t want it is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/57 "2017-02-14T16:55:06Z")
Turn this around: SUPPOSE you stumbled on a Christian web site and found somebody asking, “Why does Richard Dawkins write books trying to turn people against God?” SUPPOSE then that you found Christian members giving answers like: 1. “He’s doing it to make money.” 2. “It’s a meme- he’s driven to share his ideas.” 3. “He gets a thrill from acting bold and transgressive.” 4. “It makes him feel like a big shot.” At this point, wouldn’t you find yourself shaking your head and saying, “Folks, it’s SIMPLE! He’s writing these books because he really, truly believes that religion is false and dangerous. He thinks he’s doing you a favor. He thinks you’ll be happier and the world will be a better place if you listen to him and do as he prescribes.” After all, apart from Dawkins and Sam Harris, there are VERY few people who’ve made much money espousing atheism. If you want to get rich, I can think of a hundred better ways than writing anti-God books. Hence, if someone is out there trying to share his beliefs (or non-beliefs), Occam’s Razor suggests it’s because he actually believes what he’s selling. Well, guess what: religion is NOT a great way of getting rich! The average Catholic priest isn’t rolling in dough. Neither is a typical Lutheran minister, a typical rabbi, or a typical imam. Again, if you want to make big bucks, you go to the Wharton School, not to divinity school. Wouldn’t it be more logical to assume that, different as they are, Mother Angelica and Sam Harris are BOTH writing what they write because they think their message has value, and that people who embrace it will be better off? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/58 "2017-02-14T17:11:24Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Turn this around: SUPPOSE you stumbled on a Christian web site and found somebody asking, “Why does Richard Dawkins write books trying to turn people against God?” > > SUPPOSE then that you found Christian members giving answers like: > > 1. “He’s doing it to make money.” > > 2. “It’s a meme- he’s driven to share his ideas.” > > 3. “He gets a thrill from acting bold and transgressive.” > > 4. “It makes him feel like a big shot.” > At this point, wouldn’t you find yourself shaking your head and saying, “Folks, it’s SIMPLE! He’s writing these books because he really, truly believes that religion is false and dangerous. He thinks he’s doing you a favor. He thinks you’ll be happier and the world will be a better place if you listen to him and do as he prescribes.” > > After all, apart from Dawkins and Sam Harris, there are VERY few people who’ve made much money espousing atheism. If you want to get rich, I can think of a hundred better ways than writing anti-God books. Hence, if someone is out there trying to share his beliefs (or non-beliefs), Occam’s Razor suggests it’s because he actually believes what he’s selling. > > Well, guess what: religion is NOT a great way of getting rich! The average Catholic priest isn’t rolling in dough. Neither is a typical Lutheran minister, a typical rabbi, or a typical imam. Again, if you want to make big bucks, you go to the Wharton School, not to divinity school. > > Wouldn’t it be more logical to assume that, different as they are, Mother Angelica and Sam Harris are BOTH writing what they write because they think their message has value, and that people who embrace it will be better off? Richard Dawkins can(and does) show show verifiable evidence for the claims he makes-he doesn’t ask anyone to rely on blind faith. If you want to claim that you are trying to save me from Hell or make sure I make it into Heaven the very least you should be required to do is: 1. Show me evidence that the Heaven and/or Hell exists, _and_ 2. Show me evidence that _your_ way is the right way, as opposed to all the others. You can claim that you are trying to show me the only way out of a burning theatre, but I’m not seeing any fire in this building with 5,000 exits, so if you don’t mind I’m going to stick round and enjoy the show. ---
**Author:** ![2Bits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e95f7d/32.png) [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/59 "2017-02-14T18:57:04Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Are you looking for a serious answer? Your thread title would suggest otherwise. 🙂 I am. Thread title was meant to attract attention. None of the responses have surprised me much. I am particularly interested in actual church doctrine (i.e. The LDS effort to baptise the dead) and what impact followers believe such efforts will make in cementing their spot in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553/60 "2017-02-14T19:56:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Richard Dawkins can(and does) show show verifiable evidence for the claims he makes-he doesn’t ask anyone to rely on blind faith. If you want to claim that you are trying to save me from Hell or make sure I make it into Heaven the very least you should be required to do is: > > 1. Show me evidence that the Heaven and/or Hell exists, _and_ > 2. Show me evidence that _your_ way is the right way, as opposed to all the others. > > You can claim that you are trying to show me the only way out of a burning theatre, but I’m not seeing any fire in this building with 5,000 exits, so if you don’t mind I’m going to stick round and enjoy the show. Nothing you said addressed my point. OBVIOUSLY, you have no obligation to listen if I try to preach to you. If you tell me to get lost, I should leave. But my motivations for preaching are as simple as they seem. No need to scratch your head wondering “What’s his angle?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ill-go-to-hell-if-i-want-to-go-to-hell/779553.md?page=4)