I don’t disagree with you at all. It doesn’t work and isn’t worth it.
I guess I was commenting more on how Israel deals with its problems - they’re not afraid. They’re proactive. We’re reactive.
Jesus.
All this thought, energy, and excuses you’re giving to just her vote.
You (or your side) doesn’t give the same nuance to things Trump says.
Obama’s drone strikes taking out al-qeada and ISIS chief’s are clearly proactive. So was Obama getting Osama Bin Laden by sending SEAL team 6 into Pakistan without their permission or knowledge. The US was pretty pro-active in Libya as well, oops that one didn’t work out so well… So it other words, nope you’re wrong again.
As for last comment that’s because Trump’s speech’s are rambling and incoherent full of falsehoods and non-sequiturs. Give me one of his speeches that has a clear train of thought and a solid argument and I’ll give it plenty of nuance.
Leaving was a mistake.
Yes? No?
You don’t get to play this game with me. I’ve already asked you to explain what McCain would have done differently if he won in 2008 and Iraq refused to extend or sign a new SOFA agreement.
Oh and the main reason they refused to sign is the abuses that happened at Abu Ghraib, which occurred under Bush’s watch. So Nope your guy Bush created ISIS, by going into Iraq with no long term plan, then Bush negotiated the terms and timescale of the withdrawal.
So please tell me what magical thing McCain would have done differently to Obama?
Game with you? I asked what your opinion on that was.
And I must have missed something, what does McCain have to do with any of this?
Not feigning stupidity, just asking seriously.
I’ve answered a lot of questions. It’d be nice if you answered one.
Don’t play innocent, you know damn well your yes / no question is a trap. It’s a trap because there is no good answer to it, because it was a complete cluster fuck which Bush created and Obama inherited.
of course McCain is relevant because you’re blaming Obama for creating ISIS, so I want you to tell me how McCain would have acted differently if he had won. Go ahead.
And Obama left. With your sides wishes. And votes.
It was a mistake.
What the fuck am I missing here? I could give a rip about McCain and his position on all this
You’re missing the very obvious fact that the creation of ISIS was an inevitable result of three things which all were caused by Bush / Cheney and Rumsfeld.
• Lying about WMD to start the war
• not having a plan to stabilize the country
• Abuses at Abu Ghraib and other secret prisons leading to the Iraq’s not wanting a SOFA agreement with the US.
The consequences of this cluster fuck will effect the entire region for decades to come. You don’t get to blame Obama for something which was setup entirely before his time. He had no good options and neither would have McCain if he’d been in power.
You’re saying the withdrawal was a mistake so please tell me would you have left troops there without a SOFA or would have invaded Iraq again and forced them to except a SOFA ?
ISIS was a result of us leaving.
Doesn’t matter what the people before him did, it matters what the current person did with the situation, and Obama fucked it up.
With your sides blessing and desire.
Ok this is such an idiotic statement that I give up, if you want to continue this we can do it in the pit. Obviously people have to work with the situation they are given so of course what Bush did is relevant.
I suspect that for many it’s like people who don’t believe there is a god but won’t call themselves an atheist, even though they fit the definition; as long as they say they haven’t adopted a position, they avoid flak from people for their position.
OK, let’s make it simple. Leaving was not a mistake. Staying had no possible benefits, and leaving meant that, while that part of the world was still a mess, at least it wasn’t our mess. Leaving did not in any meaningful way result in ISIS, because the rise of ISIS or an equivalent group was inevitable given the actions of Bush and his administration.
Iraq’s government wanted us to leave – are we supposed to occupy countries against their will?
When did we leave Syria?
That’s not simple enough - get some coloring books and some crayons and then it might possibly sink in.
I’ve already spelt things out for him in the “Trump voters explain yourself” pit thread. Of all the things the partisan GOP tries to do this attempt to claim that history started in 2008 and nothing Bush did counts makes me the angriest. No we haven’t forgotten that it was YOUR guy that lied about WMD to justify an illegal war, authorised torture, created the mess than is Guatanamno, and fucked up Iraq and Syria for the next couple of decades.
Yep, and it’s one of the longest-running lies perpetuated by the modern “conservative” movement. They know it’s a lie, but truth isn’t what’s important to conservatives. Politics is a zero-sum game of winning and losing, and if they have to lie to win an election and impose their will over the rest of us, then they’ll gladly do it. They’re justified in lying because they’re ‘right’. And frankly they feel justified in doing anything to win for the same reason. This is how democracies die.
Leaving Iraq wasn’t a mistake. It should have been done years earlier. Staying would have meant more Americans killed for nothing, since ISIL or another group would be waiting to fill the vacuum no matter when we would have left. There’s no changing that region by occupying it from afar, and we’re better off staying out entirely.
And in addition to being on record supporting the war way back when, he was also a proponent of early withdrawal, as most of us already know: “Trump himself supported withdrawing troops from Iraq as early as 2007 telling our very own Wolf Blitzer on CNN in 2007 in an interview that the U.S. should declare victory and leave because I’ll tell you this country is just going to get further bogged down. Roll the tape.”
How many more American soldiers do you want to die over there? When would it have been enough?