# Illead vs Troy **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893 "2004-05-25T00:18:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/21 "2004-05-25T16:13:28Z")
And one more thing, **Starguard** : almost all the other versions of the Odyssey that you describe sound non-canonical. However, I’d be quite interested to learn which version depicts the gang-bang of Penelope. I can’t believe Homer didn’t include _that_ incident! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/22 "2004-05-25T16:45:34Z")
> [@Skopo](#): > > And one more thing, **Starguard** : almost all the other versions of the Odyssey that you describe sound non-canonical. > > However, I’d be quite interested to learn which version depicts the gang-bang of Penelope. I can’t believe Homer didn’t include _that_ incident! 😃 (LOL) Thats actually one that I read back in high school… Actually I thnik it was one of the very frist versions that I read…Maybe the author was taking the story trying to twist it into a comedy or something…Like Mel Brooks did to do with his movie version of the Bible 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/23 "2004-05-25T16:47:01Z")
Sorry for the typo’s. Ive been up all night. I’m going to bed now and will come back to this later 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/24 "2004-05-25T17:19:00Z")
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that Achillies and Patroclius were lovers, [though the Illiad itself (at least my translation) doesn’t state this explicitly] - hence Achillies’ excessive rage and vindictiveness on the death of Patroclius, while the death of numerous comrades and friends at the hands of the Trojans left him unmoved. Anyone know a source for this? ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/25 "2004-05-25T21:03:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Malthus** > _I distinctly remember reading somewhere that Achillies and Patroclius were lovers, [though the Illiad itself (at least my translation) doesn’t state this explicitly] - hence Achillies’ excessive rage and vindictiveness on the death of Patroclius, while the death of numerous comrades and friends at the hands of the Trojans left him unmoved._ Well, Patroclus was certainly not Achilles’ COUSIN anyway. I can’t think of a source off-hand, but it is commonly accepted (by those who care about such things) that this was the case. Another interesting story of this sort from the classical world is the “Theban Sacred Band” which had men fight alongside their lovers, reasoning that this would make them fight harder. It seems to have worked. (They were all killed/captured by Alexander the Great). Personally, I found the “love story” in TROY between Achilles and Briseis ridiculous (considering that she was a concubine/war prize) and almost offensive (since they didn’t want to actually show Achilles “mistreat” her, they had her be “seduced” by him…_sigh_ whatever). And the Odyssey is not “controversial” at all… Daphne Black ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/26 "2004-05-25T21:15:29Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Well, Patroclus was certainly not Achilles’ COUSIN anyway. I can’t think of a source off-hand, but it is commonly accepted (by those who care about such things) that this was the case. Another interesting story of this sort from the classical world is the “Theban Sacred Band” which had men fight alongside their lovers, reasoning that this would make them fight harder. It seems to have worked. (They were all killed/captured by Alexander the Great). > Personally, I found the “love story” in TROY between Achilles and Briseis ridiculous (considering that she was a concubine/war prize) and almost offensive (since they didn’t want to actually show Achilles “mistreat” her, they had her be “seduced” by him…_sigh_ whatever). > And the Odyssey is not “controversial” at all… > > Daphne Black The Illiad makes it pretty clear that what upset Achillies was not the “romantic love” for this slave-girl (Ha!), but the _insult_ done to him by Agamemnon stealing the _prize_ (her) awarded to him by the whole army. Later, when the Greeks are suffering, Agamemnon offers the girl back, plus a ton of treasure, five Lesbians (!) (literally - girls stolen from the island of Lesbos), the governorship of several towns, and even his own daughter, if Achillies will only fight again - and Achillies refuses. So yes, that scene rankled, as did sever other changes made to pander to modern tastes. The moviemakers must not have been confidant that modern audiences would accept that, at the time, women were often treated as little more than prizes to be won and enjoyed utterly without concern for their consent … at least, if the Illiad is any guide. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/27 "2004-05-25T21:42:43Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Well, Patroclus was certainly not Achilles’ COUSIN anyway. Yes he was. Patroclus was the son of Menoetius, who’s mother was the river nymph Aegina. Aegina and Zeus had a son, Aeacus, making Aeacus and Menoetius half brothers. Aeacus’s son was Peleus, who was the father of Achilles, so they were second cousins, once removed. Patroclus’s mother might have been Polymele, who was the daughter of Aeacus. In that case, Achilles was also his uncle. They also had lived in the same household, with Patroclus going to live in the house of Peleus after he had kiled Clitonymus in a game of dice. Patroclus also was one of the suitors of Helen, which was why he was at Troy in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/28 "2004-05-25T22:22:01Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Yes he was. Patroclus was the son of Menoetius, who’s mother was the river nymph Aegina. Aegina and Zeus had a son, Aeacus, making Aeacus and Menoetius half brothers. Aeacus’s son was Peleus, who was the father of Achilles, so they were second cousins, once removed. Patroclus’s mother might have been Polymele, who was the daughter of Aeacus. In that case, Achilles was also his uncle. They also had lived in the same household, with Patroclus going to live in the house of Peleus after he had kiled Clitonymus in a game of dice. > > Patroclus also was one of the suitors of Helen, which was why he was at Troy in the first place. Sounds like you know your Homer! :eek: If you know all that - can you reference me to who says that Patroclus and Achillies were lovers? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/29 "2004-05-26T00:47:33Z")
\<\< If you know all that - can you reference me to who says that Patroclus and Achillies were lovers? \>\> No ancient source says that. It’s a “modern” interpretation, perhaps in the last two hundred years or so (my WAG.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/30 "2004-05-26T01:54:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sounds like you know your Homer! :eek: > > If you know all that - can you reference me to who says that Patroclus and Achillies were lovers? First, I’d introduce you to what’s probably the best site on ancient Greek myth and legend I’ve found, the Greek Mythology Link [http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/index.html](http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/index.html) It gives you a brief synopsis of pretty much everybody remotely mentioned in a Greek myth, their parentage, and how they’re related to everybody else. As for a romantic relationship, we find two references to it in classical literature. The first is a fragment of a play about the Trojan War by Aeschylus, where Achillies, mourning for Patroclus, says something like: > [@](#): > > You had no consideration for my pure reverence of your thighs, ungrateful after all our frequent kisses Also, in the Symposium, one of the arguments Plato makes is that love makes men brave, because a lover will die for his beloved, and he mentions them there, saying: > [@](#): > > Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus-his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). . . So those are the classical sources that suggest it. Moving ahead to Shakespeare, in Troilus and Cressida, we also find reference to it, in Thersites’ taunting of Patroclus: > [@](#): > > THERSITES Prithee, be silent, boy; I profit not by thy talk: > thou art thought to be Achilles’ male varlet. > > PATROCLUS Male varlet, you rogue! what’s that? > > THERSITES Why, his masculine whore… Then, of course, speculation really took off in the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/31 "2004-05-26T14:26:33Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > First, I’d introduce you to what’s probably the best site on ancient Greek myth and legend I’ve found, the Greek Mythology Link > > [http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/index.html](http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/index.html) > > It gives you a brief synopsis of pretty much everybody remotely mentioned in a Greek myth, their parentage, and how they’re related to everybody else. > > As for a romantic relationship, we find two references to it in classical literature. The first is a fragment of a play about the Trojan War by Aeschylus, where Achillies, mourning for Patroclus, says something like: > > Also, in the Symposium, one of the arguments Plato makes is that love makes men brave, because a lover will die for his beloved, and he mentions them there, saying: > > So those are the classical sources that suggest it. Moving ahead to Shakespeare, in Troilus and Cressida, we also find reference to it, in Thersites’ taunting of Patroclus: > > Then, of course, speculation really took off in the 20th century. Thanks, **Captain Amazing**! I really appreciate it. 🙂 The origin of the question was this: I saw the movie with my wife, after re-reading the Illiad. She thought that it was absurd that the movie-makers never indicated that the pair were lovers. I thought that I had heard, somewhere, that this was the case, but I didn’t remember actually reading it in the Illiad. However, I know that the Illiad is only a small part (though an ancient one) of the Trojan war myth-cycle, so I assumed that this tidbit of information was from another source. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/32 "2004-05-26T17:01:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > However, I know that the Illiad is only a small part (though an ancient one) of the Trojan war myth-cycle, so I assumed that this tidbit of information was from another source. Also, just to remember, Aeschylus wrote from 470-456 BCE, and Plato wrote the Symposium sometime around 380 BCE. The Illiad was written no earlier than the 8th century BCE, and that from earlier legend. So, even if you assume the latest date possible, the Illiad was as far distant from Aeschylus as “David Copperfield” is from us, and farther distant from Plato as “Sense and Sensibility” is from us. We’ve made our own interpretations of Jane Austen’s and Charles Dickens’s works, which differ from the original interpretations, and it’s not surprising that Aeschylus and Plato would do the same. So, you might answer the question, “Patroclus and Achilles were lovers for Aeschylus and Plato. We don’t know if they were for Homer.” I’m just bringing this up because there’s a tendency, when we think about history, to compress the past. We say, “Oh, that’s Classical Greece”, and in so doing, lump Homer, Aeschylus, Plato, etc." together, when in reality they weren’t contemporaries, and there were hundreds of years seperating them. Trying to expect it to all fit in one coherant narrative is like being confused that Julius Caesar is portrayed differently in Shakespeare’s plan from the way he’s portrayed in Colleen McCollough’s current novels about ancient Rome. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/33 "2004-05-27T01:39:51Z")
> [@Plato as quoted by Captain Amazing](#): > > Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus-his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). . . So, this means that to Plato, Achilles was the youthful _ephebos_ and Patroclus the worldlier man who would take him under his wing. OK, I can see that. Y’know, that emphasis on distinguishing the active and passive form of the word (lover/beloved)… makes you wonder if in Plato’s culture it translated to other active/passive relationships… ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/34 "2004-05-27T02:12:08Z")
Maybe you guys can tell me if Achilles’ tent on the beach was authentic to the 12 c. BC, because it sure looked like a Mongolian ger. Also, if it’s ok for me to slip in a slight rant about the movie: I’m really getting sick of the “wailing Arab woman” background music that was used for the burning of Troy. It was pretentious the first time I heard it in a movie, and it’s really getting tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/35 "2004-05-27T07:44:57Z")
And a lot of interesting stuff happens in the first nine years of the war, just not relating to the anger of Achilles. I mean, where do you think all these prizes come from? The Achaians 😉 sacked cities all up and down the coast. And Odysseus is in the Iliad, until he’s taken out by archery, he just doesn’t play as major a role as Achilles. For post Homeric sources, I think its a play by Euripides where Helen wasn’t actually in Troy at all, but Paris was living in sin with a mist while Helen whiled the days away in Egypt waiting for Menelaos. Finally: Il **l** iad makes me ill (I **l** iad) and O **dd** yssey is just odd. (O **d** yssey. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/36 "2004-05-27T12:04:01Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > And a lot of interesting stuff happens in the first nine years of the war, just not relating to the anger of Achilles. I mean, where do you think all these prizes come from? The Achaians 😉 sacked cities all up and down the coast. And Odysseus is in the Iliad, until he’s taken out by archery, he just doesn’t play as major a role as Achilles. He’s part of the envoy to Achilles to try and get him to fight. He’s then wounded in the fight for the ships, and has to get bailed out by Menelaus and Ajax. He shows up later at the funeral games for Patroclus, where he wins the footrace and wrestles Ajax to a draw. (Not bad for a guy who had “the skin flayed clean off his ribs” a week or so before hand!) Yeah, watching _Troy_ motivated me to read the _Iliad_ again. (I wish had a better translation than the Fagles.) > [@Tenebras](#): > > For post Homeric sources, I think its a play by Euripides where Helen wasn’t actually in Troy at all, but Paris was living in sin with a mist while Helen whiled the days away in Egypt waiting for Menelaos. This version of the story is found in Herodotus’ _Histories_. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/37 "2004-05-27T16:44:33Z")
> [@Tenebras](#): > > And Odysseus is in the Iliad, until he’s taken out by archery, he just doesn’t play as major a role as Achilles. In one of the stories that precedes the Iliad’s narrative, I learned that Odysseus doesn’t receive trickery as well as he gives it. Look at what he did to [Palamedes](http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Palamedes.html) for getting him to join the Achaean cause\*\*\*\*\*: > [@](#): > > Having come to the front at Troy, Odysseus, never forgetting that he had been outwitted by Palamedes, kept plotting night and day against him. It is told that Odysseus compelled a Trojan prisoner to write a letter of treasonable purport, which seemed to be sent by King Priam 1 of Troy to Palamedes, and that he dropped the letter in the camp to be found and at the same time buried gold in the quarters of Palamedes. . . . > > when Palamedes was brought before Agamemnon, he denied having betrayed the army, but he was not able to convince either the king or anyone else of his innocence, after soldiers went to his tent and dug up the gold that sly Odysseus had hidden. And so Palamedes was stoned to death by the entire army. He could hold quite a grudge, that Odysseus. \*\*\*\*\*When Palamedes came to Ithaca to recruit Odysseus, Odysseus pretended like he had gone mad, and was plowing a field with a horse and a cow yoked together. Palamedes placed Telemachus, Odysseus’s infant son, in the path of the plow; when Odysseus drove up to where the baby was lying, he stopped the plow to move the baby out of the way–thus revealing that he hadn’t really lost his mind. Odysseus was then forced to honor the Oath of Tyndareus (which he himself had designed) and come to the aid of Menelaus. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/38 "2004-05-27T20:44:48Z")
Yeah, I was always a big fan of Odysseus in the Iliad and Odyssey, so I was really surprised when I heard the story about how he royally screwed over Palamedes. Homer downplays the less savory aspects of his character and paints a fairly rosy and heroic portrait of him, but Dante in the Inferno put Odysseus/Ulyssess among the fraudulent in the eighth circle of Hell. Then again, Dante had read the Aenid but not Homer, so he had kind of a one sided view of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![RitzyRae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@RitzyRae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitzyRae)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/39 "2004-05-27T21:51:13Z")
My husband and I almost walked out of the movie, and probably would have if my little brother hadn’t wanted to stay. It’s the only time in my life I’ve wanted Brad Pitt to please\_stop\_talking and put some clothes on. In reference to the lack of gods in the movie, I thought Paris was saved from being killed by Menalaus when Aphrodite swoops down and whisks him back to Helen. Is that what the Iliad says? I can’t remember where I heard that. And I second the unnecessary, and overly used wailing women soundtrack. During the final attack on Troy, my husband turned and looked at me like he was going to die. It was all too bad. Such a great story… ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893/40 "2004-05-27T22:20:51Z")
Turning the _Iliad_ into a movie would prove a considerable challenge for anyone, and I think that Wolfgang Peterson did a very good job of it. Not excellent, but very good – I gave it a 7.5 out of 10. The film suffered primarily from two things. 1. Having too much material to choose from. To do the Trojan War story properly, you’d need to dedicate about as much screen time as the whole _Lord of the Rings_. There are too many episodes, too many nuances, and too many characters to make a three hour movie without sacrificing a hell of a lot, and having to twist events around to compensate. 2. Not taking enough risks to please the classicists. For one thing, the filmmakers seem to have gone out of their way to purge any elements of homosexuality. Homer may not have meant Achilles and Patroklos to be lovers, but it’s an interpretation that has been accepted since antiquity. Secondly, the costumes showed a lot less skin than would have been expected from the inhabitants of the Mycenean Age. And while I, personally, would not have gotten a thrill from seeing Brad Pitt charging into battle in naught but a helmet and greaves, I would have enjoyed seeing Helen and the comely maidens of the Trojan court in [proper Mycenean dress](http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Greek_Islands/Greek_Islands_Tour/Court_Ladies.jpg). I mean, c’mon – even the statues of the gods were modestly draped. Third, they wanted some kind of “happy ending”, even a bittersweet one. So they strove to redeem Achilles’ boorish nature by elavating Briseus from a mere plaything to a tragic love, and to permit the escape of the court women (who as we all know, met rather ghastly fates). All of this makes it a more conventional film story, and therefore less risky. Oh yes, the soundtrack was pretty lousy, too. I normally expect better from James Horner. He composed it in a huge hurry and it really shows. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illead-vs-troy/246893.md?page=3)