# Illegal driving lesson with dad. So how can somebody learn to drive then? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691 "2013-10-08T15:43:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/1 "2013-10-08T15:43:08Z")
Teaching the kid how to drive is a tradition. I taught both my daughters. My uncle taught me. I can’t think of anyone that I know that didn’t learn from a relative. This guy screwed up royally letting his kid learn in a small store parking lot. I taught both my daughters on a dirt road near my deer camp. Then we practiced on some country roads without traffic. Eventually, after a dozen trips on back roads, I let her drive to the outskirts of town before I took the wheel. We must have logged three hundred miles in six months before she took her drivers test. It’s one of my favorite dad memories with my daughters. What gets me is the citation for driving without a learners permit. 😕 You can’t get a permit unless you pass the written test and the driving test. A total beginner can’t get a learners permit. Are they really criminalizing every person that teaches a relative to drive? Or did they just cite this guy for causing an accident? He was dumb as hell for letting a rank beginner learn in a small parking lot. > **[Florida teen rams car into gas station during illegal driving lesson with dad](https://www.nydailynews.com/2013/10/08/florida-teen-rams-car-into-gas-station-during-illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad/)** > > A Florida dad who took his son out for an illegal driving lesson has been left counting the cost – after he smashed their Toyota Camry straight into a store. John Burbridge thought it would b… > [@](#): > > A Florida dad who took his son out for an illegal driving lesson has been left counting the cost - after he smashed their Toyota Camry straight into a store. > > John Burbridge thought it would be a nice treat to take 16-year-old Andrew out onto the open road on Sunday to pass on his motoring skills. > \ > Hillsborough County Sheriff’s deputies cited both Burbridge men for the incident - Andrew for driving _without a learner’s permit_ and his dad for permitting an unauthorized driver. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/2 "2013-10-08T15:46:56Z")
Florida only requires [written/online tests](http://www.flhsmv.gov/ddl/teendriv.html) for a learner’s permit. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/3 "2013-10-08T15:48:52Z")
Yeah, I’ve never heard of anywhere that requires a driving test for a learner’s permit. The test to get a learner permit is to show that you’ve studied enough of the theory that maybe you won’t be a menace with a teacher in the front seat. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/4 "2013-10-08T15:50:42Z")
Oh. A weird state. Ok. Here in my state you must pass the written and driving tests to get a learners permit. > **[Apply for a Arkansas Teen Driver's License | DMV.ORG](https://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/teen-drivers.php)** > > Information for Arkansas teen drivers who are applying for a learner's permit and driver's license in AR—learn all the ODS's requirements. > [@](#): > > Arkansas Learner’s License > > You are eligible to apply for a learner’s license in Arkansas at 14 years old. Learner’s permit tests are administered by the Arkansas State Police; therefore, you will need to visit an ASP testing site to take your exams and earn your learner’s license. > > Bring your parent or guardian and: > > ``` > Submit your: > Birth certificate. > Proof of school enrollment with at least a 2.0 GPA (grade point average). > If you have already graduated high school, submit proof of graduation. > Proof of legal presence in the U.S. (U.S. birth certificate, U.S. passport, Naturalization Certificate). > Proof of identity (must contain full name and date of birth). > You can either provide 2 primary documents, or 1 primary document plus 1 secondary document. Please see the state’s list of acceptable proofs. > Social Security number, or an affidavit stating you do not have a SSN. > Pass the written exam. > The State Police provides study guides to use before you apply. > Pass the vision exam. > Pass the behind-the-wheel driving test. > Pay the $20 Class D learner license fee. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/5 "2013-10-08T15:51:37Z")
It’s been more years ago than I care to think but when I got a learner’s permit, I only had to pass a written test. According to my co-worker, that’s still the case in California. I, along with all of my friends, learned to drive in a huge office park parking lot on a Sunday but far away from any buildings. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/6 "2013-10-08T15:54:33Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Oh. A weird state. > > Ok. Here in my state you must pass the written and driving tests to get a learners permit. Out of curiosity, which state is that? ---
**Author:** ![want2befree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3e96dc/32.png) [@want2befree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2befree)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/7 "2013-10-08T15:56:14Z")
I’ve been teaching my daughter in parking lots and industrial areas on the weekends. I don’t live out in the country so that’s not an option. Where else would/could I teach her? Well, if anything, this news has given me pause. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/8 "2013-10-08T15:56:22Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > Out of curiosity, which state is that? Arkansas? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/9 "2013-10-08T15:58:41Z")
Arkansas. (According to **ace’s** profile.) Ninjad ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/10 "2013-10-08T15:58:48Z")
Yes Arkansas. We start with a learners license, Intermediate Driver’s License (at 16), and then a full license. They only had learners permits and full license when I learned in the 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/11 "2013-10-08T16:02:22Z")
That sounds like a smart plan. Huge open space to learn. Nothing to hit if your daughter is slow pressing the brake. The guy in the news story let his kid drive in a tiny convenience store parking lot. That’s just too confined a space and too many people to be safe. > [@want2befree](#): > > I’ve been teaching my daughter in parking lots and industrial areas on the weekends. I don’t live out in the country so that’s not an option. Where else would/could I teach her? Well, if anything, this news has given me pause. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/12 "2013-10-08T16:06:01Z")
I looked through the Arkansas DMV site. Basically, you go to a driving school before you start the process. It does mention driving time but no mention if it’s on the road or in a lot somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/13 "2013-10-08T16:10:06Z")
Lesson to be learned. When doing something illegal (driving without a permit), don’t fuck up (drive into a store). As for the Arkansas issue, according to [this page](http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/drivers-permits.php) you only need to pass a written and vision test and have a GPA above 2.0. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/14 "2013-10-08T16:12:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Oh. A weird state. > > Ok. Here in my state you must pass the written and driving tests to get a learners permit. > [Apply for a Arkansas Teen Driver's License | DMV.ORG](http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/teen-drivers.php) [dmv.org](http://dmv.org) is not the official state website, and their information is incorrect in this case. Here’s what I found in the [Arkansas drivers study guide](https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/asp/dl_study_guide_vol_1_edition_6_august_2011.pdf), under “Types of Graduated Driver Licenses” > [@](#): > > Instruction Permit – This permit allows a driver to operate a motor vehicle when > accompanied by a licensed driver, twenty-one years of age or older, who is occupying > a seat beside the driver, except in the event the permit holder is operating a motorcycle. > The applicant for an instruction permit must be at least fourteen years of age. To > obtain the instruction permit, an applicant must pass the knowledge test and vision > test. If the applicant is under the age of eighteen, a consent form signed by the > applicant’s parent or legal guardian must be submitted along with grade and > attendance forms from the applicant’s high school. The permit is issued for six months > and can be renewed for an additional six month period if the applicant has not been > at fault in an accident or been convicted of a serious traffic violation within the > preceding six month period. > [@](#): > > Learner’s License – This license is a restricted license issued to persons between > fourteen and sixteen years of age. The applicant must possess a valid Instruction Permit > indicating successful completion of the required knowledge, vision and skills tests. The applicant must not have been at fault in a traffic crash or been convicted of a serious > traffic violation within the preceding six months prior to application. A person operating > a motor vehicle with a Learner’s License must be accompanied by a licensed driver who is > at least twenty-one years of age and all passengers riding in a motor vehicle being > operated by a person with an Instruction Permit must wear safety seat belts while the > vehicle is operating. Cellular phones are prohibited by law for telephone conversations > except for an emergency. Text messaging is also prohibited. So the Instruction Permit is what you get first, and only requires the written and eye tests. The Learner’s License is what you get next, and requires that you already have an Instruction Permit. The only difference I see between them is that the Instruction Permit requires a licensed driver 21 years old to sit in the front seat, while the Learner’s License only requires the licensed driver to be in the car. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/15 "2013-10-08T16:13:51Z")
The last post about driving school notwithstanding, it sounds like Arkansas is the state with the stupid law that creates the appearance of a catch 22 – have to pass a road test to get a learner permit, but can’t practice for the road test without a learner permit. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/16 "2013-10-08T16:15:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Lesson to be learned. When doing something illegal (driving without a permit), don’t fuck up (drive into a store). > > As for the Arkansas issue, according to [this page](http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/drivers-permits.php) you only need to pass a written and vision test and have a GPA above 2.0. I was looking at [this page.](http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/teen-drivers.php) > [@](#): > > You are eligible to apply for a learner’s license in Arkansas at 14 years old. Learner’s permit tests are administered by the Arkansas State Police; therefore, you will need to visit an ASP testing site to take your exams and earn your learner’s license. > > Bring your parent or guardian and: > > ``` > Submit your: > Birth certificate. > Proof of school enrollment with at least a 2.0 GPA (grade point average). > If you have already graduated high school, submit proof of graduation. > Proof of legal presence in the U.S. (U.S. birth certificate, U.S. passport, Naturalization Certificate). > Proof of identity (must contain full name and date of birth). > You can either provide 2 primary documents, or 1 primary document plus 1 secondary document. Please see the state’s list of acceptable proofs. > Social Security number, or an affidavit stating you do not have a SSN. > Pass the written exam. > The State Police provides study guides to use before you apply. > Pass the vision exam. > Pass the behind-the-wheel driving test. > Pay the $20 Class D learner license fee. > > ``` Looks like they have two different sets of requirements. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/17 "2013-10-08T16:17:59Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I was looking at [this page.](http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/teen-drivers.php) > > Looks like they have two different sets of requirements. :rolleyes: No, they have 2 different things. An Instruction Permit, which doesn’t require a driving test, and Learner’s License, which does. Again, [dmv.org](http://dmv.org) is NOT any state’s official website, and got this wrong. Trust it at your own risk. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/18 "2013-10-08T16:18:47Z")
\ I guess things changed since I learned. I made sure my daughters knew how to drive before getting their permit. Thats how I learned too. I don’t recall my daughters getting a Learner’s License. I’m pretty sure they started with a permit at age 15 (this was 2005). The law may have changed in the past few years. I agree it does make sense to issue a learners permit first. That way the student driver is legally protected. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/19 "2013-10-08T16:24:41Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > No, they have 2 different things. An Instruction Permit, which doesn’t require a driving test, and Learner’s License, which does. Again, [dmv.org](http://dmv.org) is NOT any state’s official website, and got this wrong. Trust it at your own risk. :smack::smack::smack: _note self:double check which site you’re on_ ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691/20 "2013-10-08T16:26:14Z")
How can you learn to drive _before_ you’ve got a learner’s permit? Okay, if you live on a big farm with loads of private roads, but that isn’t most people. In the UK, you apply for a provisional licence, which I guess is our equivalent of a learner’s permit. No test for this, written or otherwise, and any full licence holder can then give you lessons. On normal roads. My first lesson was on roads in the centre of town. No parking lot or field for me. Just straight into traffic, that’s how most of us learn here, and we have some of the strictest driving tests in the world. Good grief, looking at **runner pat** ’s link, you can drive at _14_ in Arkansas? And need to prove you can drive _before_ this? What age do people _start_? No one hits the road in any form before 17 here. I think that’s even too young. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-driving-lesson-with-dad-so-how-can-somebody-learn-to-drive-then/670691.md?page=2)