# Illegal filesharing in AirBnb. Who pays? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 26, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894 "2017-10-26T15:38:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/21 "2017-10-26T16:58:20Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Alright, alright. I will pay it. Not much meat on this discussion. Good on you. But, did you really think that anyone would take your side in this situation? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/22 "2017-10-26T16:59:28Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I have to say, if I were the host I wouldn’t pay it. He didn’t commit the crime, so he should make the state prove it in court, which they cannot, since he didn’t actually do it. They have something called Störerhaft in Germany, where the host is responsible for protecting his internet against illegal use, whether he is home or not. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/23 "2017-10-26T17:01:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Good on you. But, did you really think that anyone would take your side in this situation? I was maybe 90% sure people would agree I should pay the full fine. So I thought there was a chance. If I had been completely sure I wouldn’t have asked. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/24 "2017-10-26T17:23:08Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > They have something called Störerhaft in Germany, where the host is responsible for protecting his internet against illegal use, whether he is home or not. But the ISP doesn’t? Or are they expecting basic end users to be more knowledgeable and proactive about network security than the professionals? Seems to me if the ISP can’t prevent people from using their network illegally (and they certainly can’t, even if they really wanted to), the end user should be off the hook in that regard. What if someone parked their car outside their house, hacked into their wifi, and downloaded whatever they wanted over their network? They’re still liable? What if instead of copyrighted files it’s child porn? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/25 "2017-10-26T17:34:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > What if someone parked their car outside their house, hacked into their wifi, and downloaded whatever they wanted over their network? They’re still liable? What if instead of copyrighted files it’s child porn? As I understand it, yes, they would still be liable in that case. If there is child porn involved, Im guessing it would be handled differently though. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/26 "2017-10-26T17:34:52Z")
The ISP is considered a “mere conduit” and is not responsible for users’ activity. [Neither](https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/03/eu-court-says-public-wifi-networks-not-liable-internet-piracy.html) is the operator of an open public WiFi. In this specific case, the more relevant point is that the OP should make the problem magically go away for the host and not force him to answer letters, contact lawyers, or pay fines. This is distinct from any legal issues. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/27 "2017-10-26T17:38:35Z")
At least [according to this](http://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-abolish-provider-liability-law-open-path-to-more-free-wifi/a-19249024), they’ve agreed to abolish that law. Or at least as it applies to public wifi providers like Starbucks. No indication it will help the homeowner, but it sure seems like it should. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/28 "2017-10-26T17:41:38Z")
See also [Germany | wilmap](http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/page/wilmap-germany) > [@](#): > > [The Court ruled that whoever uses a Wi-Fi router and does not implement the safety standards against third party usage that are commonly accepted at the time the router is bought, is liable for interferences, if third parties abuse this internet access for copy right infringement. A user of a Wi-Fi router has to comply with commonly accepted safety standards at the time she starts using the router independently from the previous occurrence of infringing acts by third parties. The general burden of proof of the identity of the infringer is on the plaintiff. However, when the defendant alleges that she did not cause the infringement, she bears a duty to disclose the circumstances under which such infringement could occur (note that there is no general duty to disclose material facts/discovery in Germany).] ETA: NB this is the older, obsolete law; I quoted it to emphasize that it is up to the plaintiff to prove the identity of the infringer. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/29 "2017-10-26T19:29:34Z")
I don’t know how it works in Germany, but in the US, ISPs will sometimes send “fines” that are basically scams. The fine print says that you are under no obligation to pay; I got one once for suspected piracy that was 100% legal (streamed by the copyright holder). How did they know it was you? Single guest BnB, time matches? Though your playing ignorant is a bit harder when you posted it on a public forum. Ideally, stop pirating. But also get a VPN. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/30 "2017-10-26T19:48:01Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I won’t get a bad AirBnB review, since we went outside AirBnb. Wait, what? Then why bother even mentioning Airbnb in the title or the body of the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/31 "2017-10-26T20:50:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Wait, what? Then why bother even mentioning Airbnb in the title or the body of the OP? It was an AirBNB host who for some reason agreed to not actually utilize AirBNB. The OP’s morality aside, the owner of the property was an idiot to forgo the minimal protections that you get by going through the service. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/32 "2017-10-26T23:23:40Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I wouldn’t be okay in the sense that I would invite them back, but I wouldn’t really expect anything else either. I would probably expect they offered to pay half, be happy about if they offered to pay all, and disappointed if they didn’t offer to pay anything. Next time I would try and block peer2peer on my router or something. > [@mr.jp](#): > > I would say it’s like that, yes. > > I think that if this happened while I was AirBnb hosting, they probably would not pay. Or maybe offer to pay half. Even more so in this situation, since we didn’t have an actual AirBnb contract, and I doubt he could legally pin me on it. I could of course still do the right thing, even if I think other people wouldn’t, and end up losing overall. The host probably knows what day and time it happened at and if you downloaded it right to a device you own, his router may very well have logged your MAC address. With a few more bits of info (at least in the US), I don’t think it would be difficult to win a civil suit in court for the host to get their money back. At least that’s what I would do if it were me. Ask you to pay the fine (the entire fine), if you didn’t, I’d pay it and take you to court. I intend to be out zero dollars because you did something illegal in my house. It’s funny that on the one hand we talk about how clogged up the court system is with frivolous lawsuits, but on the other hand, we have people trying to decide if they can pawn off a fine on someone else for something they did. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/33 "2017-10-27T07:18:48Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > The host probably knows what day and time it happened at and if you downloaded it right to a device you own, his router may very well have logged your MAC address. With a few more bits of info (at least in the US), I don’t think it would be difficult to win a civil suit in court for the host to get their money back. > > At least that’s what I would do if it were me. Ask you to pay the fine (the entire fine), if you didn’t, I’d pay it and take you to court. I intend to be out zero dollars because you did something illegal in my house. > > It’s funny that on the one hand we talk about how clogged up the court system is with frivolous lawsuits, but on the other hand, we have people trying to decide if they can pawn off a fine on someone else for something they did. I doubt that would be possible. I’m in a different country. No one knows what computer I have. He doesn’t know where I live or anything. There is no proof other than his word, and a whatsapp chat that connects me to ever being in his apartment. It’s interesting to me that you complain about frivolous lawsuits, in the same post where you talk about making a lawsuit. I would’ve just let it go as a host. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/34 "2017-10-27T11:40:03Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I doubt that would be possible. I’m in a different country. No one knows what computer I have. He doesn’t know where I live or anything. There is no proof other than his word, and a whatsapp chat that connects me to ever being in his apartment. > > It’s interesting to me that you complain about frivolous lawsuits, in the same post where you talk about making a lawsuit. I would’ve just let it go as a host. That’s where everyone else differs from you. If I had to pay a €500 fine for something a guest did when I wasn’t even there, I’d sure as hell want to recover it. Aside from the principle of the thing, what do you think €500 is, pocket change? Do you think your host has that much under his seat cushions? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/35 "2017-10-27T11:58:45Z")
Casual googling shows piracy is illegal in your country too. Why would something illegal in Denmark and pretty much everywhere else be legal in Germany? Why would you assume it was legal? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/36 "2017-10-27T12:32:38Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I would’ve just let it go as a host. Based on the fact that you seem to be looking for any excuse to not pay the find in this instance, I doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/37 "2017-10-27T12:34:31Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Casual googling shows piracy is illegal in your country too. Why would something illegal in Denmark and pretty much everywhere else be legal in Germany? Why would you assume it was legal? He didn’t say it was legal. He said it was “unproblematic.” He knew exactly what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/38 "2017-10-27T12:37:45Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Casual googling shows piracy is illegal in your country too. Why would something illegal in Denmark and pretty much everywhere else be legal in Germany? Why would you assume it was legal? He probably just assumed that nobody would go after him. I’ve downloaded 87 bajillion things from torrents over more than a decade. I got exactly one “nastygram” about it, when a torrent of several hundred ebooks had one Harry Potter book in it, and I was warned about that one book. Noting whatsoever came of it. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/39 "2017-10-27T13:54:45Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > That’s where everyone else differs from you. If I had to pay a €500 fine for something a guest did when I wasn’t even there, I’d sure as hell want to recover it. Aside from the principle of the thing, what do you think €500 is, pocket change? Do you think your host has that much under his seat cushions? But it’s sort of a waste of society’s resource’s isn’t it. To engage the legal system, maybe the police over the country limits, etc. Instead of just accepting that you share the bill or whatever. I’d like to think that not everyone is as litigious as you. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894/40 "2017-10-27T13:56:57Z")
I wonder if the German guy has fallen for a scam? Yes, the Germans seem to really take piracy very seriously, much more so than any European country I’ve heard of, but it still could be a scam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-filesharing-in-airbnb-who-pays/799894.md?page=3)