# "Illegal immigrants will not be covered by this bill." They should be. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575 "2009-09-10T16:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/21 "2009-09-10T19:24:21Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Not necessarily true. I don’t have health insurance, and I probably go to a doctor (not the ER) more frequently than you do . . . and pay for it myself. That’s fine, but you are an exception. If you can afford regular doctor visits, you probably could afford insurance if you chose to. As far as deporting immigrants who show up for care: that only makes the problem worse, by giving them another reason not to get timely treatment. We need to give them incentives to seek early treatment, not to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/22 "2009-09-10T19:31:28Z")
I appreciate the OP’s sentiment as the partner of an illegal immigrant. My Mig has delayed seeing a doctor for stomach problems for a long time until it became an emergency situation. He was seen in the ER on the 22nd of last month and dx’ed with an ulcer and diverticulitis. So far we’ve received three bills for several hundred dollars. They will be paid. Understand that. They WILL BE PAID. But it will be hard on his family, as it would be if I was sick. Actually much much worse. He is the head of our household. He brings in the money. If either of us deserve some sort of health care assistance it would be him, despite the fact that he came here illegally (as a child but I imagine that’s no good excuse, as I’ve been told here at the Straight Dope a few times). I just don’t think there’s a workable solution to this. If they deported him for going to the ER he obviously wouldn’t have gone. He would have found some sort of black market pain pills and tried to keep going until he died. But it still isn’t fair, I suppose, to include him and other illegal immigrants. One-third of the uninsured are either illegal immigrants or the (adult?) children of illegal immigrants. That’s a lot of people to cover who, by lack of citizenship, shouldn’t be covered. Maybe if there were more good people to volunteer their time at clinics that specialize in helping immigrants? I don’t see that much happening either. I think everyone deserves health care myself, but I don’t think it should be free for all. Is that what Obama is saying? That illegal immigrants will automatically be receiving free health care? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/23 "2009-09-10T19:38:48Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Is that what Obama is saying? That illegal immigrants will automatically be receiving free health care? Uh, no. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/24 "2009-09-10T20:13:14Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > One of the charges that anti-reform activists have levelled at the proposed healthcare changes is that it will give free healthcare to illegal immigrants at the expense of the American taxpayer. > This is a mistake. They absolutely should be included. It’s great to talk about the ideal. I’d love to give everyone in the whole wide world free medical care, 5 hour work weeks and 51 weeks of vacation a year. But we love in the real world. We (Americans) don’t pay for the benefits that we have now. Let’s pay for the bills we are generating now ( be it Social Security, Medicare, DoD etc.), before we save the world. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/25 "2009-09-10T20:26:43Z")
Question for the OP: instead of just giving illegals free healthcare, can we give them free healthcare and a Lamborghini? You know just to give the hundred or so poor people living outside the U.S. added incentive to find a way to sneak in here? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/26 "2009-09-10T20:28:54Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > **1)** It makes _financial_ sense. When people – documented or not – do not have health insurance, they don’t go to the doctor. At least, not until it is critically necessary. At that point, they go to the ER (where they have to be treated) or to a public clinic (who will patch them up as well as possible). Who pays for this? The American taxpayer! > > My sister-in-law is a nurse at a public clinic, employed by the state. A large number of her patients are undocumented immigrants. They come in with advanced conditions that could have been prevented with health education, screening, preventative medicine or maintenance drugs. All of which would have been cheaper than the catastrophic care they have to receive when they finally show up in the ER or in her examination room. Unless we are prepared not to treat these people AT ALL, and let them die in the streets, it is a better investment to keep them healthy than to not treat them until they are seriously ill at huge expense. This doesn’t affect your points 2 and 3, but the CBO [recently](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/31/AR2009083103854.html) [issued](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/31/AR2009083103854.html) a [study](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10492/08-07-Prevention.pdf) (pdf) disagreeing with your point 1. In its view, the expansion of preventive care would raise overall health costs, not lower them. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/27 "2009-09-10T20:35:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Question for the OP: instead of just giving illegals free healthcare, can we give them free healthcare and a Lamborghini? You know just to give the hundred or so poor people living outside the U.S. added incentive to find a way to sneak in here? First of all, I’m not talking about _free_ health care, I’m talking about _affordable_ healthcare. And giving anyone a Lamborghini does not meet any of the my three arguments for extending healthcare. It is not financially efficient, it does not serve the public health, and there is no moral obligation to our fellow humans to provide them with a sweet ride. People sneaking in across the borders is a separate issue that also needs to be addressed, but one thing at a time. **Tom** : Thanks for the link; I’ll take a look at that report. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/28 "2009-09-10T20:37:23Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > I agree that we have the right to control immigration as a sovereign nation but we really can’t just deport people and say come back here legally. Sure we can. We have the right to set our own immigration laws and enforce them, don’t we? > [@col\_10022](#): > > They are not here illeaglly because they are too lazy to fill out the applications and wait a reasonable amount of time, they are here illegally because the legal avenue only gives him a 1%/year chance of getting a working visa. No, they are here illegally because they either chose to sneak into the country or to illegally overstay their VISAs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/29 "2009-09-10T20:38:03Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, while I agree with the OP’s points, the practical problems to providing healthcare to illegals is pretty difficult (and of course, politically its a non-starter). Especially since the current reform plan will probably use federal tax-returns to distribute subsidies, and I imagine illegals are either paid under the table or are filing under fake SS numbers. Not always. [Here](http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/17/local/me-taxes17) > [@](#): > > Illegal immigrants can file taxes by applying for an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, designed for foreigners living here legally but now widely used by illegal immigrants. Last year, the Internal Revenue Service issued an estimated 1.2 million tax identification numbers – the vast majority of which ended up on tax returns, up from roughly 838,000 issued in 2004. [Their taxes](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&partner=kmarx&pagewanted=all&position=) support Medicare and Social Security too. > [@](#): > > Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits. > > He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/30 "2009-09-10T20:42:30Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > First of all, I’m not talking about _free_ health care, I’m talking about _affordable_ healthcare. > > And giving anyone a Lamborghini does not meet any of the my three arguments for extending healthcare. It is not financially efficient, it does not serve the public health, and there is no moral obligation to our fellow humans to provide them with a sweet ride. > > People sneaking in across the borders is a separate issue that also needs to be addressed, but one thing at a time. The point is that illegal immigration is already a huge problem in this country. And it makes anti-sense to create another carrot for more people to sneak in. And I feel no moral compunction—zero—to provide anyone with healthcare beyond that which is required in an emergency. Here’s an idea, and I am very serious about it, why don’t all the people who feel a moral obligation to treat illegals all donate money and start clinics for illegals? If their is such a strong moral call to provide such care, why don’t those who feel it, provide it? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/31 "2009-09-10T20:51:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The point is that illegal immigration is already a huge problem in this country. And it makes anti-sense to create another carrot for more people to sneak in. And I feel no moral compunction—zero—to provide anyone with healthcare beyond that which is required in an emergency. Well, were things that simple, it would be an easy choice. I agree with you that free health care does provide an extra incentive to come to the U.S. How much of an incentive I am not sure, but I would agree it exists at the margin. But that isn’t the only variable int he cost benefit analysis. There is also, for example, the cost of untreated illegals being in the country - both the cost to public health and the cost to productivity, as, in many areas, the work done by illegals is critical to the local economy. There is also a further cost to be considered - the cost of enforcement. This isn’t only about the checking aspect, but also the cost of deterring legal immigrants from seeking health care. Such policies do seem to end up with increased harrasment of Latinos who are legally in the US. So even without considering any moral aspects, there are costs to be weighed both of providing and not providing this health care. > [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s an idea, and I am very serious about it, why don’t all the people who feel a moral obligation to treat illegals all donate money and start clinics for illegals? If their is such a strong moral call to provide such care, why don’t those who feel it, provide it? Problem with that is don’t you think a medical facility catering to illegal immigrants might provide a certain tempting target for the INS? And, as such, might nto be particularly attractive to its clientele? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/32 "2009-09-10T21:05:10Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, were things that simple, it would be an easy choice. I agree with you that free health care does provide an extra incentive to come to the U.S. How much of an incentive I am not sure, but I would agree it exists at the margin. > > But that isn’t the only variable int he cost benefit analysis. There is also, for example, the cost of untreated illegals being in the country - both the cost to public health and the cost to productivity, as, in many areas, the work done by illegals is critical to the local economy. The public health argument is a strong one. The other is fantasy. Do you really think that if every illegal were removed throughout the next year that, no dry wall would be put up, no houses painted, no food cooked and no tables bussed in restaurants, that fruit and vegetables would rot on the vine? No, what would happen is that the wages for those jobs would rise to where they should be, and all those jobs you here “that Americans won’t do”, would again be done by Americans. And the unemployment rate, particularly among blacks, would go down. The horrors! > [@villa](#): > > There is also a further cost to be considered - the cost of enforcement. This isn’t only about the checking aspect, but also the cost of deterring legal immigrants from seeking health care. Such policies do seem to end up with increased harrasment of Latinos who are legally in the US. I really don’t care how “harassed” (as I think you mean it) someone is who doesn’t belong here. They didn’t have to come. and they can always leave. I don’t see how enforcement would be a big deal. When you come in for treatment you either have adequate paperwork or you don’t. But maybe I’m understanding you here. > [@villa](#): > > So even without considering any moral aspects, there are costs to be weighed both of providing and not providing this health care. Oh, I agree. I just think that the negative far outweigh the positives, particularly with the HUGE carrot of free healthcare. > [@villa](#): > > Problem with that is don’t you think a medical facility catering to illegal immigrants might provide a certain tempting target for the INS? And, as such, might nto be particularly attractive to its clientele? No more so than hanging out in front of the Home Depot in many towns. If their sick, they’ll come. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/33 "2009-09-10T21:20:05Z")
I’m sorry but I seriously disagree with the OP. I consider myself left-of-center politically and I am all for Obama’s version of Health Care reform, however that reform I feel is not due illegal immigrants. > [@Skammer](#): > > 1. It makes financial sense. When people – documented or not – do not have health insurance, they don’t go to the doctor. At least, not until it is critically necessary. At that point, they go to the ER (where they have to be treated) or to a public clinic (who will patch them up as well as possible). Who pays for this? The American taxpayer! It makes _LONG TERM_ financial sense if they stay here the rest of their lives, if we’re allowing that we should just bite the bullet and make them legal immigrants. I and many others have issues with naturalizing someone who didn’t follow our rules day one. > [@Skammer](#): > > 1. It makes public health sense. Do we want illegal immigrants walking around with undiagnosed, untreated illnesses and diseases? Do you want to sit on a bus next to someone who has a hacking cough or scaling skin or open wound because they cannot afford a doctor? Do you want your kids in school with children who have not received immunizations because their parents are illegal and can’t afford them? You act as if illegal immigrants are walking around with Ebola. According to the [National Center for Health Statistics](http://www.statisticstop10.com/Causes_of_Death_in_US.html) the only transferable illness in the top ten is Influenza and Pneumonia and it comes in at #7 with a whopping 2.7%. > [@Skammer](#): > > 1. It makes moral sense. Yes, these folks are breaking the law. Yet, we provide healthcare to prisoners. Human decency requires us to take care of people who are sick, especially the poor among us - not just those who follow the rules. For those who call themselves Christian: Mercy triumphs over judgment! (Jas 2:13). You will find a religious text referenced here to support an argument isn’t worth a bucket of warm spit. We do have a moral obligation to provide health care to people we incarcerate , how that is equivalent to unintentionally hosting a person who snuck into the country is beyond me. Perhaps you could elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/34 "2009-09-10T21:40:44Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You will find a religious text referenced here to support an argument isn’t worth a bucket of warm spit. We do have a moral obligation to provide health care to people we incarcerate , how that is equivalent to unintentionally hosting a person who snuck into the country is beyond me. Perhaps you could elaborate. I wasn’t going to respond but since you asked me to elaborate on my third point… I’m well aware that the bulk of the posters on this board tend to be dismissive (if not hostile) to religious arguments, and furthermore I agree that religious arguments are inappropriate to discussions of public policy. In my defense, however, I’ll note that 1. The fact that I pulled out a Biblical quote does not negate my main point, which is that healthcare is a moral issue (religion aside); 2. I specifcially addressed that aside to “those who call themselves Christian” because 3. Many of those on the conservative side of the argument do, in fact, self-identify as Christian, so I was making an argument to specifically appeal to them. In summary, your honor, stick it up your ass that last sentence of reason #3 was not aimed at you nor intended to be the hinge of my argument. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/35 "2009-09-10T22:00:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The public health argument is a strong one. The other is fantasy. Do you really think that if every illegal were removed throughout the next year that, no dry wall would be put up, no houses painted, no food cooked and no tables bussed in restaurants, that fruit and vegetables would rot on the vine? No, what would happen is that the wages for those jobs would rise to where they should be, and all those jobs you here “that Americans won’t do”, would again be done by Americans. And the unemployment rate, particularly among blacks, would go down. The horrors! Clearly I said that no dry wall would be put up, no houses painted, no food cooked, no tables bussed and no produce picked. Or maybe you are deliberately exaggerating what I actually did say… Wages might rise somewhat. Prices almost certainly would if they did. There would be some movement of jobs. But overall economic activity would fall. > [@magellan01](#): > > I really don’t care how “harassed” (as I think you mean it) someone is who doesn’t belong here. They didn’t have to come. and they can always leave. I don’t see how enforcement would be a big deal. When you come in for treatment you either have adequate paperwork or you don’t. But maybe I’m understanding you here. Try reading what I said. I talked about the harassment of latinos in the country **legally**. And really, **you** are going to bitch at my spelling/grammar? Let’s look at this post alone. I assume you meant “maybe I’m _ **mis** _understanding you here.” And later, when you say “If their sick” one would assume you meant “If they’re sick.” > [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, I agree. I just think that the negative far outweigh the positives, particularly with the HUGE carrot of free healthcare. I’ve seen no evidence that free healthcare would be a huge carrot. I can see it making a small difference at the margins, but that is about it. > [@magellan01](#): > > No more so than hanging out in front of the Home Depot in many towns. If their sick, they’ll come. There is nothing about hanging out in front of a Home Depot that makes you presumptively an illegal alien - I know many day workers who are legally in the country. Going to a clinic that is established for illegal aliens would be pretty automatically probable cause, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/36 "2009-09-10T22:06:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Their taxes](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&partner=kmarx&pagewanted=all&position=) support Medicare and Social Security too. Stop that! You’re posting factual cites that explain how these people contribute to society! Stop it! \ ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/37 "2009-09-10T22:29:33Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > 1. The fact that I pulled out a Biblical quote does not negate my main point. It does, however, suggest that you are debating from a delusional point of view, which automatically makes your argument suspect. For what it’s worth, illegal immigrants should not be entitled to _any_ taxpayer-funded services, period. Doesn’t matter if it’s health care, education, or roads. They are not U.S. citizens, and should not be afforded the rights and privileges of U.S. citizens, until they invest the time and effort to become U.S. citizens themselves. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/38 "2009-09-10T22:32:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Clearly I said that no dry wall would be put up, no houses painted, no food cooked, no tables bussed and no produce picked. Or maybe you are deliberately exaggerating what I actually did say… > > Wages might rise somewhat. Prices almost certainly would if they did. There would be some movement of jobs. But overall economic activity would fall. My comment was in response to you saying that they are “critical to the economy”. This is paraded out often and I don’t think it’s true. Instead, other people would do those jobs, for somewhat more money. Prices would rise somewhat, sure. I’d be fine with that. Also, many people currently unemployed will suddenly find themselves in demand, reducing government assistance in that arena. > [@villa](#): > > Try reading what I said. I talked about the harassment of latinos in the country **legally**. > > And really, **you** are going to bitch at my spelling/grammar? Let’s look at this post alone. I assume you meant “maybe I’m _ **mis** _understanding you here.” And later, when you say “If their sick” one would assume you meant “If they’re sick.” This is actually funny. I honestly was not calling attention to your spelling. I even had to go back and find the mistake that you thought I might be making a big deal about. Like I said, I find that funny…in a both of can laugh at it kind of way. And yes, I meant “misunderstand”. However, I did make an error in reading. I missed that you were talking about those here _legally_. My apologies. > [@villa](#): > > I’ve seen no evidence that free healthcare would be a huge carrot. I can see it making a small difference at the margins, but that is about it. I don’t think there’s any way to prove this one way or the other, but to me, common sense says that if you can manage to get into Country X you can avail yourself of what is arguably the finest healthcare system in the world, for free, that that is a HUGE carrot. Particularly if the country you’re in doesn’t have great health care. Or it’s expensive. > [@villa](#): > > There is nothing about hanging out in front of a Home Depot that makes you presumptively an illegal alien - I know many day workers who are legally in the country. Going to a clinic that is established for illegal aliens would be pretty automatically probable cause, don’t you think? And here you missed an important part of what I wrote: “in many towns”. In many towns it is known by all, even the police, that the people hanging out outside places like Home Depot are illegals. Some towns have gone so far as to build shelters for them. The sad fact is that in many towns you won’t get deported unless you’re arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/39 "2009-09-10T23:12:33Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > It does, however, suggest that you are debating from a delusional point of view, which automatically makes your argument suspect. > > For what it’s worth, illegal immigrants should not be entitled to _any_ taxpayer-funded services, period. Doesn’t matter if it’s health care, education, or roads. They are not U.S. citizens, and should not be afforded the rights and privileges of U.S. citizens, until they invest the time and effort to become U.S. citizens themselves. :rolleyes: I didn’t even say it was _my_ view. Quoting the Bible to make a point _to people who believe in the Bible_ makes me delusional? Did you even see _Footloose_? ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/40 "2009-09-10T23:29:03Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Quoting the Bible to make a point _to people who believe in the Bible_ makes me delusional? Which people are you talking about? Last I checked, the audience here is primarily atheist/agnostic, and quoting the Bible to support a moral argument makes no sense at all. It’s as silly as quoting the Bible in reference to shopping for Purina Cat Chow (Daniel 6:16). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575.md?page=3)