# "Illegal immigrants will not be covered by this bill." They should be. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575 "2009-09-10T16:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/61 "2009-09-11T09:15:55Z")
I think the OP is persuasive. I would add that undoc’d aliens do pay FICA & Medicare taxes in many cases, by using false identities. (They aren’t all paid under the table; not by a long shot.) In a true public system they’d be paying in as much as any other working-class schlemiel. They may as well benefit. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/62 "2009-09-11T09:35:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Question for the OP: instead of just giving illegals free healthcare, can we give them free healthcare and a Lamborghini? You know just to give the hundred or so poor people living outside the U.S. added incentive to find a way to sneak in here? Point of information: Mexico has guaranteed public health care. [http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/05/04/f-health-mexico-health-system.html](http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/05/04/f-health-mexico-health-system.html) > **[Healthcare in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Mexico)** > > Healthcare in Mexico is a multifaceted system comprising public institutions overseen by government departments, private hospitals and clinics, and private physicians. It is distinguished by a unique amalgamation of coverage predominantly contingent upon individuals' employment statuses. Rooted in the Mexican constitution's principles, every Mexican citizen is entitled to cost-free access to healthcare and medication. This constitutional mandate was translated into reality through the auspices... So does China. > **[Healthcare in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_China)** > > .mw-parser-output .tmulti .multiimageinner{display:flex;flex-direction:column}.mw-parser-output .tmulti .trow{display:flex;flex-direction:row;clear:left;flex-wrap:wrap;width:100%;box-sizing:border-box}.mw-parser-output .tmulti .tsingle{margin:1px;float:left}.mw-parser-output .tmulti .theader{clear:both;font-weight:bold;text-align:center;align-self:center;background-color:transparent;width:100%}.mw-parser-output .tmulti .thumbcaption{background-color:transparent}.mw-parser-output .tmulti .text-a... So does Nigeria. > **[Health in Nigeria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Nigeria)** > > In Nigeria, significant progress has been made in health improvement since 1950. However, lower respiratory infections, neonatal disorders, and HIV/AIDS remain the leading causes of death in the country. Diseases such as monkeypox, polio, malaria, and tuberculosis have shown improvement due to various interventions. Other major health concerns include malnutrition, pollution, and road traffic accidents. In 2020, Nigeria recorded the highest number of cases of COVID-19 in Africa. > The Human Ri... India doesn’t appear to, nor does the Philippines. I haven’t found much about Guatemala. I think that covers most of the countries which tend to send lots of immigrants to the US. > **[File:COB data US.PNG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:COB_data_US.PNG)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. > The following other wikis use this file: So we probably really just have to worry about Pinoy & Indians coming here for health insurance. Guatemala is pretty small & they could go to Mexico as it stands. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/63 "2009-09-11T09:40:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure we can. We have the right to set our own immigration laws and enforce them, don’t we? That depends. I don’t believe in the borders or the quotas personally. Am I bound to follow the INS policy? Aren’t they (in a libertarian individualist paradigm) imposing their will against my freedom if they say I can’t hire an “illegal”? Not to mention the immigrant’s personal freedom? If you think that the government has the right to declare who has certain rights & who doesn’t based on which side of some silly line in the dust, what else do you sacrifice to this “sovereign” institution? If you support restrictions on immigration, don’t come crying to me when you think you’re overtaxed. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/64 "2009-09-11T09:43:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The point is that illegal immigration is already a huge problem in this country. No. It’s individuals making free choices. Isn’t that what America’s about? Why do you hate freedom? They come here, they pay taxes to support these programs, they should receive benefits. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/65 "2009-09-11T09:50:29Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > They are not U.S. citizens, and should not be afforded the rights and privileges of U.S. citizens, until they invest the time and effort to become U.S. citizens themselves. I never spent any time or effort to become a US citizen. Did you? Who works harder to enter this country–someone born here or someone who sneaks in? The truth is, our quotas are arbitrary. It doesn’t matter how hard you work if the only way in is a draft lottery. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/66 "2009-09-11T10:03:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What an interesting notion. I wonder how such thinking could help rid us of thieves, embezzlers, wife beaters, rapists, etc… Sheer genius. The difference is that an “illegal’s” “misbehavior” (not even a crime, really) is simply working here without sanction. Give him the sanction to do what anyone else can do, “poof” no more misdemeanor. The other things you mention are felonies. At least two of them are actively, violently harmful, regardless who does them. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/67 "2009-09-11T13:13:11Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Look, you’re right, this is a silly and pointless hijack. It’s just that quoting the Bible to support ANY argument is a potentially contentious tactic on this particular forum. Before debating any weighty topic, it’s always important to get a feel for the “board culture” first. I’ve been regularly posting to this board for over seven years. I had nearly 3,000 posts before giving up “Member Charter” status a few months ago. Don’t lecture me about “the culture of this board.” I offered a tacked-on comment at the end of my OP to address a common demographic of the conservative right. I’m fully aware that it is not a common demographic of this particular message board, although I think I’m safe to say that there are those who participate in these debates who are, indeed, Christian, even here. I did not mean to imply that one could not be “moral” without being “Christian.” I did not intend that a single bible verse would persuade anyone of anything. I did not intend to insult non-believers - I specifically addressed that comment to Christians. If I really thought that biblical exegesis was important to the debate on this forum, I would have done more than proof-texting. _It was a casual remark specifically addressed to a particular group_, and I was not particular concerned that that group is under-represented here. This is the stupidest hijack I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/68 "2009-09-11T13:42:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The difference is that an “illegal’s” “misbehavior” (not even a crime, really) is simply working here without sanction. Give him the sanction to do what anyone else can do, “poof” no more misdemeanor. The other things you mention are felonies. At least two of them are actively, violently harmful, regardless who does them. Well, many most have also snuck into the country. Another crime. But since you don’t believe in the dust in the sand that serves to define a nation, I guess that doesn’t trouble you. Never mind the right of a country to protect it’s borders and enforce the laws its elected representatives have crafted. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/69 "2009-09-11T13:47:37Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I never spent any time or effort to become a US citizen. Did you? > > Who works harder to enter this country–someone born here or someone who sneaks in? No. I also spent no time having the color eyes I have. So what? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > The truth is, our quotas are arbitrary. It doesn’t matter how hard you work if the only way in is a draft lottery. Well, I want a Lamborghini. But the only way for me to get one is buy one. based on your logic I should be able to steal one. Why let a little notion like property rights or the laws we have to ensure them get in the way of me fulfilling my desires. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/70 "2009-09-11T14:05:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > That depends. I don’t believe in the borders or the quotas personally. Am I bound to follow the INS policy? Yes. The same way someone who doesn’t believe in speed limits has to abide by them and pay tickets and the same way someone who doesn’t believe in taxes has to pay them or get locked up. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Aren’t they (in a libertarian individualist paradigm) imposing their will against my freedom if they say I can’t hire an “illegal”? Not to mention the immigrant’s personal freedom? Yes. So? When you live in a society you give up certain “freedoms”. I’d love to drive 100mph on certain roads. And drive on the left side of the road. And hire a guy for $1 an hour. And fire him if he gets too fat. And park my RV on my front lawn. And build an extension on my house without having to get the town approval. And have 12 wives. And only hire Hindus. Etc., etc. etc. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > If you think that the government has the right to declare who has certain rights & who doesn’t based on which side of some silly line in the dust, what else do you sacrifice to this “sovereign” institution? I don’t think the line is silly at all. It demarcates the country. It defines a geographic area that says "within this line lies a group of people who have a distinct set of laws. If you are within them, you must adhere to them, even while you work to change them. If cannot adhere to the laws of the land, stay the fuck out. And Rule #1 is: Respect the fucking border, that which defines who we are. If you want in, you must do so through the legal means we have set up. If you do not, you will be arrested and incarcerated and/or sent back to your own country. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > If you support restrictions on immigration, don’t come crying to me when you think you’re overtaxed. You’re looking at the wrong guy to do that. I’d happily pay more tax to keep the people out who would sneak in or otherwise be here illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/71 "2009-09-11T14:13:41Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > For what it’s worth, illegal immigrants should not be entitled to _any_ taxpayer-funded services, period. Doesn’t matter if it’s health care, education, or roads. They are not U.S. citizens, and should not be afforded the rights and privileges of U.S. citizens, until they invest the time and effort to become U.S. citizens themselves. Excuse me, does that also apply to legal immigrants and to foreigners who are in the US, either visiting, studying or working legally in the US but not immigrating? Those people aren’t US citizens either. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/72 "2009-09-11T14:15:53Z")
I don’t understand how preventative care is supposed to lower costs in the first place. Extending lives doesn’t seem cheaper. It creates more years for more preventative care to be done. As people get older, they need more and more care. When they are really old, they are likely to need the most expensive care of their lives. It seems cheaper to not give them free care, so there is a greater chance they would die younger. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/73 "2009-09-11T15:22:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, many most have also snuck into the country. Another crime. But since you don’t believe in the dust in the sand that serves to define a nation, I guess that doesn’t trouble you. Never mind the right of a country to protect it’s borders and enforce the laws its elected representatives have crafted. :rolleyes: I hope you also accept that we have the right to form agencies to serve the public interest & pay for them with taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/74 "2009-09-11T15:25:56Z")
It sounds like the main arguments against providing healthcare to illegals is the fact that they’re illegal and should not be “rewarded” with healthcare (or other public services) which may even create additional incentives to sneak into the country. In the OP, I tried to argue (in points 1 and 2) that providing HC for them is in our _own_ best interest, not just theirs, both financially and in terms of public health. The financial argument, as some as pointed out, may not be clear-cut when you factor in a lifetime of preventative care vs. the cost of catastrophic treatment and early death, but you also have to account for the lost productivity. Illegal or not, they contribute the economy both as a worker and a consumer. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/75 "2009-09-11T15:28:27Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > I don’t understand how preventative care is supposed to lower costs in the first place. > > Extending lives doesn’t seem cheaper. It creates more years for more preventative care to be done. As people get older, they need more and more care. When they are really old, they are likely to need the most expensive care of their lives. > > It seems cheaper to not give them free care, so there is a greater chance they would die younger. That’s probably true..although you could make the case that certain diseases, if caught early enough, would be cheaper to treat than if left to linger. It’s all about utopia. In a utopia there are no “medica fees” or “restrictions” or “do we cover illegal aliens or not”…it’s all free and limitless. If you’re not for free, unlimited health care then you’re a jerk. Do you want utopia or not!?! ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/76 "2009-09-11T15:30:01Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It sounds like the main arguments against providing healthcare to illegals is the fact that they’re illegal and should not be “rewarded” with healthcare (or other public services) which may even create additional incentives to sneak into the country. > > In the OP, I tried to argue (in points 1 and 2) that providing HC for them is in our _own_ best interest, not just theirs, both financially and in terms of public health. The financial argument, as some as pointed out, may not be clear-cut when you factor in a lifetime of preventative care vs. the cost of catastrophic treatment and early death, but you also have to account for the lost productivity. Illegal or not, they contribute the economy both as a worker and a consumer. They contribute very little to our economy. A guy making $5 an hour produces $10K of stuff per year. Giving him and his family free health care, food, housing assistance, is going to cost a lot more than $10K. Why not advertise to the world that we will give free, unlimited health care to anyone who is in our country, legal or not? It’s not like we don’t have the money to cover the world, right? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/77 "2009-09-11T15:58:50Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Why not advertise to the world that we will give free, unlimited health care to anyone who is in our country, legal or not? It’s not like we don’t have the money to cover the world, right? Except you missed the part where I said I wasn’t talking about free healthcare, I’m talking about affordable healthcare. And you also missed the part where Mexico, China, and a bunch of other countries already actually do give free healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/78 "2009-09-11T17:58:45Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Except you missed the part where I said I wasn’t talking about free healthcare, I’m talking about affordable healthcare. And you also missed the part where Mexico, China, and a bunch of other countries already actually do give free healthcare. Affordable healthcare? If the US spends $5,000 per year on an average family for ‘healthcare’ then how is a guy making $5 an hour going to afford it? He can’t. Cuba gives free healthcare too. I would bet it isn’t quite the technological marvel that US healthcare is though. Or does all the money spent on US healthcare just end up as profit for an insurance company? So do you want to have two tracks? Government healthcare for poor people on a ‘Cuban’ level and free and a different healthcare for everyone else? Or do you want the gov’t to ‘give’ poor people free healthcare even though it costs quite a bit more than ‘free’? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575/79 "2009-09-11T18:52:42Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Affordable healthcare? If the US spends $5,000 per year on an average family for ‘healthcare’ then how is a guy making $5 an hour going to afford it? He can’t. Well yeah, that’s the problem. > [@](#): > > Cuba gives free healthcare too. I would bet it isn’t quite the technological marvel that US healthcare is though. Or does all the money spent on US healthcare just end up as profit for an insurance company? Who mentioned Cuba? You know who else gets free healthcare? Terrorists! Not really, but that makes just as much sense. Healthcare proposals are not about providing inferior care. It’s about contolling costs, and subsidizing the expense for people who can’t afford insurance today. So that people don’t go bankrupt when they get sick because of medical costs. > [@](#): > > So do you want to have two tracks? Government healthcare for poor people on a ‘Cuban’ level and free and a different healthcare for everyone else? Or do you want the gov’t to ‘give’ poor people free healthcare even though it costs quite a bit more than ‘free’? Exclude the middle much? Government healthcare does not have to be at the “Cuban” level (see: Medicare). And yes, although not free, I want to give people healthcare that “costs” more than they are able to pay _because it is better for the rest of us_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants-will-not-be-covered-by-this-bill-they-should-be/509575.md?page=3)