# Illegal Immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247 "2003-02-24T21:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/21 "2003-02-25T01:21:54Z")
El Mariachi Loco, Thank you for your point of view. I am interested in hearing from someone in Mexico, why dont you just free up your own economy(and other things like establish something like our Bill of Rights, etc.) and create jobs down there in Mexico? Then there would be no need for Mexicans to come up here? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/22 "2003-02-25T01:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know. Perhaps leave them alone until they break a RULE law? I mean a REAL law. Stupid me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/23 "2003-02-25T01:38:09Z")
Mostro: I still think you are trying to have it both ways. You don’t want to close the borders, but you don’t want to call illegal aliens criminals. BTW, it is illegal to enter this country w/o passing thru immigration control at the border, so I hope we’re not going to get into a semantic game. You either control your borders or you don’t. We are doing a pretty miserable job at it now, but if we didn’t even try, this country would be flooded with immigrants, not just from Mexico, but from every 3rd world country on earth. I feel sorry for the folks escaping poverty in Mexico. I’d like to see that government take better care of reforming their own economy so their citizens didn’t have to risk their lives to escape. It amazes me that we, the US, are the bad guys here and not the Mexican gov’t. BTW, I’d say a US person sneaking into Mexico to work would be as much an illegal as the reverse situation. Not sure if it ever happens, though. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/24 "2003-02-25T01:43:57Z")
**John Mace** , you may be right. In complete honesty, I don’t know what to do about people who aren’t “supposed” to be here. But I wish people would be more compassionate, less hateful and vicious, when we talk about illegal aliens. Most are not bad people. I don’t think bad people would risk their lives and their good name to provide better for their families. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/25 "2003-02-25T01:50:48Z")
Oh, I’ll be one of the last people you’ll ever hear argue in favor of the status quo in Mexico. But change is easier said than done - you’re dealing with a deeply ingrained rent-taking economy, a legacy of poor planning and excessive centralization that outdates Mexico as a nation, historically poor governance, a highly active pseudo-anarchist element that violently resists change, and a number of expressions of institutional corruption that discourages growth and entrepreneurship (as opposed to forms of corruption typically found in developed economies that depend on growth). You can’t “fix” Mexico any sooner than you can “fix” the Illinois Department of Motor Vehicles. To establish a Mexican economy that is not inducive to labor flight, you need to have local infrastructure and opportunities. Those elements are coming about, slow as they are. But even if you get by the ten-percenters, there are major hurdles that may or may not be overcome–first is Mexico’s deficient legal and regulatory framework, which has in fact improved substantially over the last 10 years or so. Then there are the local interest groups and foreign activists, who in my opinion are confusing steps toward a sustainable regional economy for some other globalization bogeyman (such as in the case of opposition to the Puebla-Panama Plan). ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/26 "2003-02-25T01:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by regnad kcin \* > \*\*Susan– > > You gonna take your own garbage to the dump? Are you gonna make that YMCA theyre building down the street? > > Face it. There are tons of illegals in his country doing jobs most citizens dont want to do. Why do you think the government is so lax about chasing after Latin Americans? Most of them work hard, pay taxes, support their families. \*\* Yes, not to mention that if it weren’t for ilegals this country would be in the negative population growth. They are good consumers also. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/27 "2003-02-25T02:00:04Z")
Monstro: It’s a tough situation. If I were a peasant in Mexico, I might well try to jump the fence myself. I’d like to think, though, that I’d understand why I’d get shipped back if cuaght. We might be better off if we could manage some sort of guest worker program, but I’m not sure how you make that successful. If we had absolutely no illegals in this country, we’d find a way for the jobs they do to get done. In some cases wages would rise, as would the cost of some products. More middle class folks would do their own yard work. The laws of supply and demand actually do work. Maybe there’d be fewer restaurants. Maybe food would cost more. With the unemployment rate at something like 5-6%, some unemployed gringos might even be lured into the work force. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/28 "2003-02-25T02:03:23Z")
Good point. And with negative population growth who pays for social security? Germany and Japan, with their negative population growth, are staring down the barrel of catastrophe. Germany has allowed lots of eastern Europeans and Turks in to do the crap work and pay taxes. Im not sure what Japan is planning on doing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/29 "2003-02-25T02:18:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by El Mariachi Loco_ > Monty - Do noncitizen veterans get military pensions and postservice social benefits regardless of their immigration and civil statuses, the same as U.S. citizens? Yes. After all, they’ve performed their Service to the country and have earned the attendant benefits thereto. As for immigration status: There are 3 types of folks in the military here: [list=1][li]United States Citizens.[/li][li]Resident Aliens (aka Green Card Holders)[/li][li]Philippine Non-immigrant Aliens (aka Philippine NIA)[/li][/quote] Those in number 1 are those who either enlisted or became commissioned and are citizens of the United States. Those in number two are those who enlisted after they entered this country as immigrant aliens. Those in number 3 are those who enlisted under the terms of the Status of Forces Agreement between the governments of the United States of America and the Republic of the Philippines. Not a single day of that service counts towards a future admission to the country as an immigrant alien. Now, there are programs provided for by law in which the NIA may have his status converted to immigrant alien. IIRC, one of those programs is to be on Active Duty in combat; however, I won’t swear to that. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Susanann_ > I dont think we should allow any aliens in our military. How can an alien swear to protect and defend the constitution when he is not even a citizen? That attitude kind of destroys the idea of becoming a citizen, now doesn’t it? After all, to become a citizen, the **alien** must swear to uphold the Constitution. As for how: simple, he or she stands up and makes an agreement between him or her & the government of the United States. Kind of simple when you think. > [@](#): > > Also, allowing aliens in our military is also not a good idea if martial law was ever declared. First off, I really don’t believe that declaring martial law is a valid option in this country. I firmly support the Constitution’s take on having a civilian government supported by, not ruled by, the military. Second, as an illegal alien cannot lawfully enter the United States Armed Forces, it is completely irrelevant if martial law is in place or not. Third: I don’t suppose you would care to provide some kind of suport for your assertion, would you? Or is it just a rant? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, serving in the United States armed forces, is an honor and a privedge - not a punishment. Yes, it is an honor. It’s also something referred to as a voluntarily incurred **obligation**. Since the naturalization laws provide for a shorter waiting term prior to naturalization of the resident alien concerned is a member of the Armed Forces, I think the government of this fine land thought about it and decided that it’s a might fine idea for resident aliens to serve and therefore did what they could to make it more attractive to them. Good grief, I can’t believe I didn’t respond to Susanann with a link to a pitesque comment in the Pit and managed to keep it GD. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/30 "2003-02-25T02:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*They commited a “crime”, they violated United States law. > > Those who commit crimes are : “criminals”. > > Is this hard to understand? > > (criminals rarely make good citizens) > > If they commit this crime what other crimes might they commit? > > Many of them also falsify government documents, violate labor laws, health laws, evade income taxes, aid and abett other criminals, etc. > > Not a very good start to “good citizenship”. > > You get it. \*\* And as **Twist of Fate** pointed out, that’s a description that fits Oliver North. What do you say to that? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/31 "2003-02-25T03:21:21Z")
Ollie North had the benefit of already being a citizen. Otherwise, with his record he could never have become a citizen had he been an immigrant. By the way, you realize that he is no longer in the military, right? Could it be, perhaps, that he was tossed? Nah… **Twisty** and I have already had this argument. I say “we’ll open your borders when Europe sets the example and opens theirs”. I’m sure that Spain, for instance, is falling all over itself to let Muslim North Africans in. Or France. Or Germany. Nope. The only country worth criticizing is the US, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/32 "2003-02-25T03:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by regnad kcin \* > \*\*Germany and Japan, with their negative population growth, are staring down the barrel of catastrophe. Germany has allowed lots of eastern Europeans and Turks in to do the crap work and pay taxes. Im not sure what Japan is planning on doing. \*\* Japan has taken a novel approach to the problem of shrinking labor pools, and all it will cost is 5 mackerel a day: [Gov’t grants lovable seal full residency rights](http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/871787/seal-0-2.html) And a follow-up: [Foreigners call for residency status like seal Tama-chan](http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=250416&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/33 "2003-02-25T04:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*Illegal immigrants are criminals. > > I dont want, or need, criminals in our military. > > All illegals should be permantently deported with no chance of ever being allowed into this country again. \*\* Logical point, by our laws. But aren’t you glad the Indians didn’t enforce this on your ancestors? (It’s not quite a total smartalecky remark – just the observation that it all depends on your perspective! Respect for laws comes with the right to help make them – something in short supply in other countries. They want to be a part of our free and wealthy-by-world-standards society, however they can do it. Is that so loathsome?) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/34 "2003-02-25T04:41:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*I dont think we should allow any aliens in our military. How can an alien swear to protect and defend the constitution when he is not even a citizen? > > Also, allowing aliens in our military is also not a good idea if martial law was ever declared. > > Furthermore, serving in the United States armed forces, is an honor and a privedge - not a punishment. > > * * * > > \*\* Here is something that pretty much shoots down the argument against aliens in the armed forces. From [here:](http://cato.org/dailys/11-04-96.html) "More than 20 percent (over 700) of the Congressional Medal of Honor recipients in U.S. wars have been immigrants. As the official guide to recipients notes, “Those who have received the Medal of Honor since it was established in 1861 as the nation’s highest decoration are as different as the melting pot population of our country.” ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/35 "2003-02-25T04:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Logical point, by our laws. But aren’t you glad the Indians didn’t enforce this on your ancestors? > > (It’s not quite a total smartalecky remark – just the observation that it all depends on your perspective! Respect for laws comes with the right to help make them – something in short supply in other countries. They want to be a part of our free and wealthy-by-world-standards society, however they can do it. Is that so loathsome?) > > \*\* And this is not a smartalecky reply: Not quite the same thing. Indians constantly “stole” land from each other. The Souix were originally from CAnada - they “stole” land from other tribes in Minnesota, in the Dakotas, Montana, Colorado, etc. , pushed out other tribes, or mexicans, or aztecs, as they move and expanded. Same thing with the Commanche, Apache, etc. Same thing with all indian tribes. ## We took land from the indians “the indian way” the same way the indians took the land that they had - the strongest tribe owned it - that was their law. Your feelings for the third world people doesnt hold water, if you take it to the extreme. What if 3 billion people want to come here? What if 3 or 4 billion want our wealth? You establish no limits, no rules, no requirements as to who, or how many we let in. What if 3 billion third world people want to come here for the money, but do not like our laws, nor our Constitution, nor our Bill of Rights? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/36 "2003-02-25T04:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CBEscapee \* > \*\*Here is something that pretty much shoots down the argument against aliens in the armed forces. > From [here:](http://cato.org/dailys/11-04-96.html) > > "More than 20 percent (over 700) of the Congressional Medal of Honor recipients in U.S. wars have been immigrants. As the official guide to recipients notes, “Those who have received the Medal of Honor since it was established in 1861 as the nation’s highest decoration are as different as the melting pot population of our country.” \*\* Maybe it does for you, but I can still disagree with it, and I do. I am well aware of what aliens have done in the past and it doesnt change my opinion. I didnt say that naturalized citizens cannot be in the military, I said aliens should not be. Those same men of foreign birth can still join up, they just have to wait until they get citizenship first. I think we can wait a few years for those aliens to get their citizenship first before serving. Martial law has been declared several times in our early history. If it is declared again, with a lot of aliens among our troops, particularly if the reason for martial law is a controversy over the Constitution itself, then it could be a potentially dangerous situation - not only with civilians against the military, but Americans in the military against aliens in the military. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/37 "2003-02-25T05:03:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\* > > I didnt say that naturalized citizens cannot be in the military, I said aliens should not be. > > \*\* None of the immigrants mentioned in the article are said to have been citizens. I’ll bet the other soldiers whose lives were saved by these men disagree with you too. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/38 "2003-02-25T05:30:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi Loco \* > \*\*Oh, I’ll be one of the last people you’ll ever hear argue in favor of the status quo in Mexico. > > But change is easier said than done - ). \*\* Thank you for your reply, and you say it well. I understand it is hard. I am reminded of a time when Mexico was a free land, a time when Mexicans could own guns, a time when those at the Alamo actually fought FOR the 1824 Mexican constitution and flew the 1824 Mexican flag at the Alamo. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/39 "2003-02-25T05:33:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\* > I am reminded of a time when Mexico was a free land, a time when Mexicans could own guns, a time when those at the Alamo actually fought FOR the 1824 Mexican constitution and flew the 1824 Mexican flag at the Alamo. \*\* Mexicans can own guns. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247/40 "2003-02-25T06:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > a time when those at the Alamo actually fought FOR the 1824 Mexican constitution and flew the 1824 Mexican flag at the Alamo. Yeah. About the time they decided that they did not like Mexico telling them to free their slaves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigrants/157247.md?page=3)