# Illegal immigration from the demand side (aka Zero Tolerance for Employers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815 "2018-06-27T03:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/41 "2018-07-21T03:25:58Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I wasn’t aware that living here gave someone citizenship in our country. There are many thousands of foreigners living here. But they are not citizens. They applied. Not sure why. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/42 "2018-07-23T23:14:11Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks. A “good faith effort” like [this employer](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/more-than-140-arrested-at-meatpacking-plant-in-another-ohio-immigration-raid) made? Targeting large businesses and industries that benefit from exploiting cheap undocumented immigrant labor with frequent raids like this would surely go a long way towards solving the problem, while boosting wages for those workers in the country legally. Workplace safety would probably improve too (it’s easier for employers to cut corners when their workers are afraid to complain for fear that immigration agents will get involved). But there’s no more political support for such a plan than there is to conduct frequent raids on recycling businesses/junkyards that knowingly buy metals stolen from homes, businesses and construction sites. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/43 "2018-07-23T23:28:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I disagree. What we need to do is get over our shit, accept that non-citizens who may or may not be undocumented are gonna be doing the shitty jobs that none of us want to do, and move on with our lives. None of us want to do at the price that employers are currently offering. There is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/44 "2018-07-24T00:16:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It would be messy either way. California bans municipalities from using E-Verify, and Illinois used to ban it but now forbids employers from using it before hiring an employee ([cite](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/30/one-way-to-stem-illegal-immigration-more-bureaucrats-to-mess-with-americas-small-businesses/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0200a74cf3e9)). An employer can also be sued for discrimination for being too aggressive in requiring documentation before hiring, like insisting on a green card. An employer shouldn’t try to run the I-9 until _after_ the job has been offered and the applicant has accepted. And when processing an I-9 an employer cannot demand a new hire provide a specific piece of documentation. The feds have a list of documents acceptable for I-9 purposes and if the new employee brings them to me I have to accept it so long as it meets the specifications from USCIS. I’ve had employees try to bring me copies of their Social Security card, novelty metal Social Security cards they insisted were valid (they aren’t), copies of birth certificates, etc., etc. that weren’t up to snuff and I never had any problems telling them their documents were unacceptable and to go get something valid. If an employee doesn’t get their I-9 documentation to me within three days of their official date of hire they can be terminated. I haven’t had that happen yet though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/45 "2018-07-25T01:53:53Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > Out of the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the US, about 8 million of them work. The overwhelming majority of those who cross the border illegally are not here fleeing violence and oppression, or to plant anchor welfare babies and rape our women, but to do shitty jobs and make money. More to the point, they’re here because a whole lot of people are willing to employ them. > > I could be wrong (and it’s one of the reasons I’m starting this discussion), but I don’t feel like I read much about employers of undocumented immigrants getting in trouble. And it seems like it couldn’t possibly be that hard to find them if we really wanted to. Ok, you see, all they have to do is show their had plausible deniability. That they saw a SSN, etc. And of course the real reason behind all this talk about Illegals is that they are brown-skinned and thus it is based upon xenophobia and racism. The business owners are Ok, since they are usually white, but in any case Americans. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/46 "2018-07-25T01:58:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I think we need to issue National ID cards to every citizen and legal resident that uses biometric data to create a tamper proof way of establishing everyone’s identity. In order to obtain employment in the US, you must have a national ID card. We fought two World wars in order that no jackbooted thug can order us "Your papers please!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhIPvEanMg ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/47 "2018-07-25T02:00:42Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks. > > We could required expended use of e-verify. I don’t know if that would have to be state by state or if congress could mandate it. E-verify is unreliable. > **[E-Verify: Immigration Reform's Threat To Legal Workers](https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/01/10/e-verify-immigration-reforms-threat-to-legal-workers/#50c8ec95a539)** > > An unreliable system that shifts enforcement costs onto citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/48 "2018-07-25T02:00:50Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > None of us want to do at the price that employers are currently offering. There is a difference. [Here](http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/) is a good article about that. Even with an increase in wages and benefits, they can’t find workers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/49 "2018-07-25T02:01:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Democrats don’t like requiring ID for voting. Republicans like requiring IDs, but are opposed to people actually having them. Not quite- Republicans like requiring _minorities_ to have IDs, since they are more likely to vote Democratic. It’s Jim Crow. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/50 "2018-07-25T02:07:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > DO they actually make an effort to follow the law, though? > > I thought one of the reasons that illegal immigrants were so in demand is that many (not all) employers exploited the fact that they could get away with breaking various labor laws. (Minimum wage was a big one, also various working conditions, etc) > > Aren’t a great many of them exploited? (I’m genuinely asking this) Employers no longer pay them under the table or less than minimum wage. See, they arent so afraid of the INS, but they are (justifiably) afraid of the I **R** S. One complaint they are paying under the table, and the IRS is on them, and the iRS is not nice about Employment tax violations. Also, if the INS does come calling, and they find you are paying the Illegals less, then that is proof you knew they were illegal. So, employers want plausible deniability. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/51 "2018-07-25T02:11:48Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > Sometimes it’s not that farm employers hire folks from Mexico to exploit them. I have a relative who earned their living growing strawberries in SoCal. I remember being surprised when watching her do her payroll when I saw that many of the paychecks were larger than mine, and I was a graphic artist working the printing trades. No white Americans ever sought employment to pick strawberries. Not even one. I asked. > . Yep, it is hard backbreaking work, but it is out in the nice California weather, and a good fieldworker can earn $200 a day. Paid by the piece, not by the hour. And yes, Americans do not want those jobs. > **[Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job](https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/)** > > Trump's immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it's worsening a desperate labor shortage. ---
**Author:** ![RandomNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RandomNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomNerd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/52 "2018-07-26T00:02:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > [Here](http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/) is a good article about that. Even with an increase in wages and benefits, they can’t find workers. Annual salary of 40,000 in California if you are full time which most are not. 16 per hour as the target rate for one of the farmers. Would you work a long shift in the sun on manual labor for that price? In some places the minimum wage lets you get that much for doing easier retail work. At some point we need to value physical labor at a higher price, which is against all the dogma of American capitalism and its pride in shareholder getting the value, or we need to keep supporting legal and illegal immigration to supply labor that consistently is the cheapest in the country regardless of the farmers whining about finally going over ten bucks an hour. We probably need higher commodity prices which will help everyone but the super rich (which is why it will not happen) because prices are not so elastic as they pretend everytime wage hikes are discussed. In truth it will stabilize at a point with a slightly lower cut for the rich, higher volume, and a stronger lower class purchasing power at the expense of having some inflation as the adjustment mechanism. Some will scaremonger over inflation disasters but the reality is it already happens for more insidious reasons so a little wage growth inflation may not even be all that noticeable from the background inflation we get from other sources (mostly financial trickery and now idiotic tariff wars). If we want to stop immigration manual labor should be valued at professional levels with better rewards for professional employees (work long hours, always on time, dependable and wfficient but do their work with their hands instead of their minds). That would mean 20-30 not minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815/53 "2018-07-26T13:16:21Z")
Nah, I think it’s better to let people come here and work to support their families, regardless of where their families are. Lower vegetable prices for me is just a bonus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-from-the-demand-side-aka-zero-tolerance-for-employers/816815.md?page=2)