# Illegal immigration to the United States **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747 "2015-06-29T00:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/61 "2015-07-02T19:08:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My mistake – he said “they’re rapists”, referring to Mexican immigrants. So he said that Mexican immigrants are rapists. > **[Donald Trump's tirade on Mexico's 'drugs and rapists' outrages US Latinos](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/16/donald-trump-mexico-presidential-speech-latino-hispanic)** > > National council of La Raza spokeswoman calls latest Republican candidate a ‘silly man’ for saying Mexico is ‘bringing drugs, crime and rapists’ to US “[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and **their rapists** ,” the business mogul said. > **[15 Head-Scratching Quotes From Donald Trump's Presidential Announcement Speech](https://www.mic.com/articles/120785/best-quotes-from-donald-trumps-2016-presidential-announcement-speech)** > > On Tuesday, billionaire right-winger Donald Trump announced his campaign for president of the United States in what will probably be remembered as one of the most unintentionally funny speeches of all time. > In a rambling dialogue that touched on… “When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. […] They are sending people that have lots of problems. They are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs and they are bringing crime and **their rapists** , and some are good people, and I speak to border guards and they tell us what we are getting.” > **[Donald Trump Blasts Mexicans in Presidential Bid Announcement; 'They Bring...](http://www.latinospost.com/articles/64513/20150617/donald-trump-blasts-mexicans-presidential-bid-announcement-bring-drugs-crimes.htm)** > > Donald Trump announces his Presidential bid but sends out a negative message to the Latin community. (Note the incorrect quote from trump in the title of this article) “[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and **their rapists** ,” Trump claimed." > **[Mexico, Latinos Lash Out At Real Estate Mogul Donald Trump's Trashing Of...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaestevez/2015/06/17/mexico-latinos-lash-out-at-real-estate-mogul-donald-trumps-trashing-of-mexicans-and-immigrants/)** > > Real estate billionaire Donald Trump's derogatory description of Mexico and immigrants was labeled "biased and absurd" and "utterly disrespectful" by the Mexican government and Latino leaders in the U.S. Trump also accused Mexico of sending “not the right people” to the U.S. “[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and **their rapists** ,” he said. [http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-oliver-méndez/2015/06/18/trump-takes-beating-spanish-nets](http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-oliver-m%C3%A9ndez/2015/06/18/trump-takes-beating-spanish-nets) DONALD TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They are not sending you. They are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, **their rapists**. etc. etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/62 "2015-07-02T19:14:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It translates to: “the Mexicans that come illegally over the border are not, objectively, as a group, the best that Mexico has to offer.”. Or even the average that Mexico has to offer. Do you disagree with that? I don’t see how you can, objectively. I don’t see how you can assess it either way. Is there some data on Mexicans in Mexico vs. Mexican-born people in the US? What rubrics are we using to measure them? I’m sure the two groups differ by more than geography, but how could we know which group is more intelligent? More adventurous? More hard-working? Will raise children more likely to contribute to their society in a positive way? Edit: and Mexico, the nation, isn’t sending anyone. That makes it sound like an invasion by a hostile power, analogous to the way the Americans invaded and took over northern Mexico in the 1800s. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/63 "2015-07-02T19:34:20Z")
If it’s “their rapists” rather than “they’re rapists”, I suppose it’s slightly better, but still a really stupid thing to say. I’ll refrain from posting a bunch of cites that parse it as “they’re rapists”, I’m sure everyone knows they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/64 "2015-07-02T20:31:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I don’t see how you can assess it either way. Is there some data on Mexicans in Mexico vs. Mexican-born people in the US? What rubrics are we using to measure them? I’m sure the two groups differ by more than geography, but how could we know which group is more intelligent? More adventurous? More hard-working? Will raise children more likely to contribute to their society in a positive way? > > Edit: and Mexico, the nation, isn’t sending anyone. That makes it sound like an invasion by a hostile power, analogous to the way the Americans invaded and took over northern Mexico in the 1800s. From the National Review article I cited above: “Immigrants here from Mexico — which has sent more immigrants than any other country for decades — have the lowest levels of education. Nearly 60 percent of them haven’t graduated from high school. Only about 10 percent have some college and nearly 6 percent have a bachelor’s degree or higher.” From [http://www.oecd.org/edu/Education-at-a-Glance-2014.pdf](http://www.oecd.org/edu/Education-at-a-Glance-2014.pdf) - 45% High School graduation rate (so - 55% haven’t graduated from high school). So - high school graduation rate among Mexican immigrants is same or lower than for Mexicans in Mexico. And you also have to take into account that in the US high school is compulsory and free and in Mexico it isn’t, which should increase the US rates for Mexican immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/65 "2015-07-02T20:56:00Z")
So your unique criterion is the completion of high school? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/66 "2015-07-02T20:57:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > So your unique criterion is the completion of high school? That shows the education level. Which usually correlates well with achievement later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/67 "2015-07-02T21:01:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That shows the education level. Which usually correlates well with achievement later in life. With economic achievement. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/68 "2015-07-02T21:21:36Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > With economic achievement. Groovy, man. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/69 "2015-07-02T21:26:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Groovy, man. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I assume it’s a stinging rebuttal, so touché, my internet friend, touché. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/70 "2015-07-02T21:29:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you also have to take into account that in the US high school is compulsory and free and in Mexico it isn’t, which should increase the US rates for Mexican immigrants. It has been for a couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/no_me_ayudes_compadre/32/5224_2.png) [@No\_Me\_Ayudes\_Compadre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Me_Ayudes_Compadre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/71 "2015-07-02T22:10:53Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > I can only think of two possibilities: Natural resources and politics. Also, historical differences in colonization/founding, socioeconomic differences resulting precisely from the availability of cheap immigrant labor vs. local peon class, differences between Mexican corruption and U.S. corruption, rule of law / social contract issues, lack of accountability of public actors, lack of an antagonistic press, and some really truly awful economic decisions. In some Mexican states there isn’t even a fine line between public authorities and criminal gangs. In terms of the criminal element, in the 1990s Mexico engaged in a catastrophic experiment in criminal justice that made it virtually impossible to convict, which it is still struggling to set straight. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/72 "2015-07-02T22:12:47Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > This is a pretty naïve representation of how the economy works. I’d have a lot more sympathy for protectionist arguments if so many of them weren’t built on the notion that the economy is a zero-sum game. The person taking the job will spend the money that he/she earns, which means that economic growth is occurring. Unless there’s no basis to the idea that Mexicans send a lot of their wages back to Mexico, then they’re not spending nearly as much money in the US as a person whose entire family is here in the US. By trading an employee who will spend all their earnings here for one who will send a lot away, that’s slowing economic growth not building it. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/73 "2015-07-02T23:07:17Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Unless there’s no basis to the idea that Mexicans send a lot of their wages back to Mexico, then they’re not spending nearly as much money in the US as a person whose entire family is here in the US. By trading an employee who will spend all their earnings here for one who will send a lot away, that’s slowing economic growth not building it. I think the effect you’re describing is vanishingly small, and a little misleading. First, your phrasing suggests that all Mexicans send back most of their earnings. I would replace “all” and “most” with “some”. More importantly, growth is growth, and this distinction between faster growth and slower growth is not all that meaningful. If more people are working and spending, the economy will tend to be growing. If some of those people are sending some portion of their money out of the country (or hiding it under their mattresses), it’s not going to cancel out the economic growth. Basically, putting up a fence is forgoing a lot of opportunity for growth. Having some people “hold back” a portion of their income from the local market is a small concern compared to the large missed opportunity. And if we’re going to talk about economic effects, we can’t ignore that the immigrant picking apples on the cheap results in the “indigenous” population having access to cheaper food. Overall, it would be dumb to say that immigration is some kind of unmitigated “good”, but economically, immigration is generally a lot more good than bad. For everybody. I’m not really looking to turn this thread into an academic exploration of macroeconomics (and admittedly I can only go so far with it if it does), but my point is that arguments that equate to “There were 6 jobs, and this foreigner took one, so now there are only 5” generally misunderstand how the economy works in general and the role that growth plays in prosperity. -VM ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/74 "2015-07-02T23:10:37Z")
Interesting, the majority of farm workers in the US are Mexican, numbering about a million. I guess high levels of academic education are not required for that sort of work. Just sweat and stamina and long hours of backbreaking work in the fields to support your family back home. Such hard working people deserve respect. However it seems that Mexico is changing. People are becoming better educated, workers are moving from working the land to other work, families are getting smaller and that labour pool is shrinking. > **[U.S., Mexico Increasingly Competing for Farm Labor](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-mexico-increasingly-competing-for-farm-labor-1422043153)** > > The U.S. and Mexico are increasingly competing for a dwindling supply of farm labor, according to a new analysis, a development that likely will have long-term implications for the U.S. agricultural sector. People need to get real about how the labour market works. Trump sounds profoundly ignorant about that. Would the huge agri-businesses of Californian and Texas thank him for his remarks questioning the value of their workforce? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/75 "2015-07-03T04:59:26Z")
Not talking to anyone in particular just a general statement, but you know this thread has a lot of potential to be very interesting and informative, but once it becomes about what Donald Trump said or didn’t say it just really sidetracks the heart of the thread. Just a thought… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/76 "2015-07-03T05:04:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s Mexican immigrants by the way, from his quote, (sorry if I confused anyone) and I don’t know. I think it’s incredibly stupid to say so, and considering the many, many stupid things Trump has said, it’s possible he believes it. You don’t know?! Okay. Do you have an opinion? Because earlier in the thread it certainly sounded like you did? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/77 "2015-07-03T12:37:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You don’t know?! Okay. Do you have an opinion? Because earlier in the thread it certainly sounded like you did? I certainly have an opinion about Trump – he’s a blowhard, a nutty conspiracy theorist, and an idiot, based on many of the things he says. And what he said about Mexican immigrants was racist, IMO. I don’t know if he personally has racist beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/78 "2015-07-03T13:12:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I certainly have an opinion about Trump – he’s a blowhard, a nutty conspiracy theorist, and an idiot, based on many of the things he says. And what he said about Mexican immigrants was racist, IMO. I don’t know if he personally has racist beliefs. It’s a very simple question, yet you seem intent on not answering it. ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/79 "2015-07-03T13:13:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s a very simple question, yet you seem intent on not answering it. > > ::shrug:: 'Cause I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747/80 "2015-07-03T13:19:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > 'Cause I don’t know. We’ve established that. But are you scything that you never offer your opinion on these boards? Just to show the oh-so-difficult question you find so difficult to answer: > [@](#): > > Do you think that Trump believes that “in general, Mexicans (or Mexican immigrants) are rapists”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/illegal-immigration-to-the-united-states/723747.md?page=5)